[MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?
MarshaV
marshalz at charter.net
Tue Nov 7 06:19:39 PST 2006
Ron,
Why is this post run-on words without any
break? There have been too many posts like this,
and they are nearly impossible to decipher.
Marsha
At 09:14 AM 11/7/2006, you wrote:
> Micah, .. sometimes it's not about the point
> but the way in which you interact with the
> person you have the debate with. your war
> against religeon is blinding you to the slaying
> of your allies. religeon is your White whale
> Ahab. You say you're an atheist, but you
> subscribe to the MOQ, I don’t get it. The MOQ
> persues intellectual betterment, pirsig himself
> relates it to tao some places, virtue in others
> a movement toward betterment, to care, all
> religeous works have that one thread through
> all of them, the MOQ. In ZMM pirsig makes that
> connection of god-good-goodness-godliness with
> quality.. I do not believe in the
> judeo/christian god that most people do either,
> they believe in this metaphsyical "santa
> clause"..I pursue the MOQ. If you pursue the
> MOQ then you are technically pursuing
> godliness, no?. -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On
> Behalf Of Micah Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006
> 6:21 PM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org Subject:
> Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? Ron, Jews
> are an ethnic group or culture as stated in the
> definition, but not a race, which is also
> implied by the definition - race is biological,
> religion is not. Micah -----Original
> Message----- From:
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On
> Behalf Of Ron Kulp Sent: Monday, November 06,
> 2006 12:26 PM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?
> Micah, Wikipedia needs your help too. -Ron
> Ethnic group From Wikipedia, the free
> encyclopedia An ethnic group is a human
> population whose members identify with each
> other, usually on the basis of a presumed
> common genealogy or ancestry (Smith, 1986).
> Ethnic groups are also usually united by common
> cultural, behavioural, linguistic, or religious
> practices. In this sense, an ethnic group is
> also a cultural community. Types of ethnic
> group Members of an ethnic group generally
> claim a strong cultural continuity over time,
> although some historians and anthropologists
> have documented that many of the cultural
> practices on which various ethnic groups are
> based are of recent invention (Friedlander
> 1975, Hobsbawm and Ranger 1983, Sider 1993). On
> the political front, an ethnic group is
> distinguished from a nation-state by the
> former's lack of sovereignty. While ethnicity
> and race are related concepts (Abizadeh 2001),
> the concept of ethnicity is rooted in the idea
> of social groups, marked especially by shared
> nationality, tribal affiliation, genealogy,
> religious faith, language, or cultural and
> traditional origins, whereas race is rooted in
> the idea of a biological classification of Homo
> sapiens according to chosen genotypic and/or
> phenotypic traits, and a belief that such
> differences among human beings are of such a
> magnitude as to be classified by the
> anthropological sense of "race", i.e.
> subspecies. -----Original Message----- From:
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On
> Behalf Of Micah Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006
> 11:46 AM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org Subject:
> Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? Ron, I
> understand your point, it's wrong. Hitler's
> persecution of Jews and others was rooted in
> the German culture dating back to the First
> Reich, and beyond. But he specifically targeted
> the Jews. You keep citing biblical passages,
> and if you believe in the Judeo/Christian god
> then I understand your confusion on this
> subject. Judaism would only be considered a
> race if you believe in god - I don't. Further,
> if they are the "Chosen People", what does that
> make the rest of us? So in a way you're right
> indirectly, because that is the beginning of
> racism. I won't defend that, you can. If you
> remove god from your definition of race, then
> Judaism is not a race. Look at Hitler and his
> brain trust and count the number of blonde,
> blue eyed men. You won't need any fingers for
> that count. I continue to recommend you read
> "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by
> William Shirer, to help your understanding -
> which appears to be quite limited on this
> subject, at least that's what a friend of my
> bother's wife's sister's step-uncle's wife
> says. Yes, we disagree. But we're gonna make it
> through. Micah -----Original Message----- From:
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On
> Behalf Of Ron Kulp Sent: Monday, November 06,
> 2006 8:29 AM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?
> Micah, Ethno-religious is the key word,
> Jews/Hebrews are both ethnic and religious,
> perhaps the only group considered that. The
> mass exection of them was considered a
> "genocide"The term "genocide" was coined by
> Raphael Lemkin (19001959), a POLISH-JEWISH
> legal scholar, in 1943, from the roots genos
> (Greek for family, tribe or RACE) and -cide
> (Latin - occidere or cideo - to massacre). Jews
> (Hebrew: éÀäåÌãÄéí, Yehudim; Yiddish: ééÄãï,
> Yidn) are followers of Judaism or, more
> generally, MEMBERS OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE (also
> known as the Jewish nation, or the Children of
> Israel), an ETHNO-RELIGIOUS group DESCENDED
> from the ancient Israelites AND from converts
> who joined their religion. The term also
> includes those who have undergone an officially
> recognized formal process of religious
> conversion to Judaism. The current Jewish
> population is over 14.5 million, the majority
> of whom live in the United States and Israel.
> Answer this- why do they call Hebrews who
> convert to Christianity Christian-Jews?, why
> not just christians? Moses said "let my PEOPLE
> go" the egyptians enslaved another race not
> just another religeous group. Hitler persicuted
> not only jews BUT ALL"INFERIOR" RACES as he saw
> them,the Arayan race was deemed superior was
> it not? If you were not white,Blond and
> blue-eyed, your future was not very bright.
> "the final solution" included the retarded and
> mentally ill. A darwinistic society and that’s
> how it was presented, it was package and sold
> to the german public as cleaning up the gene
> pool and streamlining society.. oh, he had a
> religous grudge against the jews too, they
> killed jesus and held the monitary reigns on
> german christian society too.I really do not
> know how to present anymore information
> supporting my claim..I even called a friend of
> my wifes who is a jew and she said They do
> consider themselves an ethnic group.sooooo if
> anyone else out there can help me or give some
> input it would be much appreciated. Other than
> that I really can'nt go any further on this
> subject, Micah. "You can lead a horse to water
> but you can't make them drink" Unless of course
> you’re a nazi, then with the right "motivation"
> a funnel and some tie downs, you could probably
> make that sucker drink. At the very least lets
> agree to disagree on this one...best wishes..
> -Ron -----Original Message----- From:
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On
> Behalf Of Micah Sent: Saturday, November 04,
> 2006 7:40 PM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?
> Ron, You did an example of the problem with
> confusing race and religion. You compared Jews
> and Arabs. It should be Jews and Muslims (or
> whatever) or Hebrews and Arabs. Jews are only a
> race if you believe in god. Are Christians a
> race by your reasoning? Was Sammy Davis Jr. in
> the Ethno/religious definition of Jews as a
> race? Actually my father-in-law is Jewish and I
> couldn't distinguish him ethnically from a
> Palestinian (the religious affiliation being
> unknown), because they're both Semites. I can't
> see faiths, like skin color. Micah
> -----Original Message----- From:
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On
> Behalf Of Ron Kulp Sent: Friday, November 03,
> 2006 12:19 PM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?
> Well, first off, they call the Holocost a
> "genocide" The term "genocide" was coined by
> Raphael Lemkin (1900-1959), a Polish-Jewish
> legal scholar, in 1943, from the roots genos
> (Greek for family, tribe or race) and -cide
> (Latin - occidere or cideo - to massacre).
> Religeon is also criteria in the definition, so
> I believe we are both correct to some degree, I
> was just asking you to consider That the
> holocost was not purely a religeous
> persicution. Hitler deemed them a lower form of
> human, a subspecies. This is terrible to say
> But if you lined up a group of semites, chances
> are you could separate the jews from the Arabs,
> and that's as far as I'll go on that one. _Ron
> -----Original Message----- From:
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On
> Behalf Of Micah Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006
> 12:40 PM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org Subject:
> Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? Ron,
> Iroquois is a subset of American Indian. Hebrew
> is a subset of Semite, as is Palestinian.
> Nobody says the Muslims are a race, or
> Christians, why do you think Jews are a race?
> Micah -----Original Message----- From:
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On
> Behalf Of Ron Kulp Sent: Friday, November 03,
> 2006 11:33 AM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?
> Ron, I cannot convert to American Indian, but I
> can convert to Judaism. The line is not
> blurred. The Jews are religious a group, not an
> ethnic or racial group. Micah But Micah, do you
> see what you're saying? You could become part
> of the Iroqoi if you wanted to, likewise with
> the jews, you would not share the same ethnic
> roots with either, sure you would'nt be able to
> claim ethnic rights of being native american
> but you could'nt claim ethnic rights of being a
> semite either. Am I makin sense? -Ron
> -----Original Message----- From:
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On
> Behalf Of Micah Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006
> 12:13 PM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org Subject:
> Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? Ron, I
> cannot convert to American Indian, but I can
> convert to Judaism. The line is not blurred.
> The Jews are religious a group, not an ethnic
> or racial group. Micah -----Original
> Message----- From:
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On
> Behalf Of Ron Kulp Sent: Friday, November 03,
> 2006 11:08 AM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?
> Micah, the distinction between "racial" and
> "ethnic" seems to be blurred, I have not found
> where this is acuratly defined. But the nazi's
> used to single them out by name and apearance,
> dare I go down the list of racial slurrs? No
> doubt Hitler used religeon but he used "racial
> superiority" to support his endeavores too.
> -Ron -----Original Message----- From:
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On
> Behalf Of Micah Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006
> 11:57 AM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org Subject:
> Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? Ron, "The
> Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by Shirer,
> chronicles Hitler's use of religion in waging
> war and persecuting peoples. Yes, the Hebrews
> are a racial group, but Jews are a religious
> group, not a race. By the way Palestinians are
> Semites, does that make people like Sharon
> anti-Semitic? Micah -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On
> Behalf Of Ron Kulp Sent: Friday, November 03,
> 2006 10:44 AM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?
> Micah, Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am
> acting in accordance with the will of the
> Almighty Creator: by defending myself against
> the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the
> Lord.." As a boy, Hitler attended to the
> Catholic church and experienced the
> anti-Semitic attitude of his culture. In his
> book, Mein Kampf, Hitler reveals himself as a
> fanatical believer in God and country I've
> already hit platt with this and he changed his
> opinion of it. By the way Hebrews are a racial
> group too. -Ron -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On
> Behalf Of Micah Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006
> 11:36 AM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org Subject:
> Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? Platt, The
> Jews are a religious group. The holocaust was
> the persecution of Jews, therefore it was
> religious persecution. If the Jews were a race,
> it would have been racism, but they are
> religious group and that makes it religious
> persecution. Micah -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On
> Behalf Of pholden at davtv.com Sent: Thursday,
> November 02, 2006 7:42 PM To:
> moq_discuss at moqtalk.org Subject: Re: [MD] So
> cometh MOQ, what next? Quoting Micah
> <micah at roarkplumbing.com>: > Platt, > > Was
> group of people did Hitler persecute? Was it
> the Jews? Aren't the > Jews a > religious
> group? So isn't that religious persecution? > >
> Micah I don't consider the Holocaust motivated
> by religious belief. I agree with Pirsig that
> it was caused by "low level static social and
> biological patterns whose overall purpose was
> to retard the evolution of truth and Dynamic
> Quality." But Hitler did say he was God's
> appointed savior of the German people. So in
> that twisted sense, the Nazis cyncially used
> religious belief to gain and hold power. But
> you still haven't provided evidence to support
> your assertion that religion is "the most
> destructive force in history." I'm not saying
> such evidence doesn't exist, just that I
> haven't seen it. Platt > > > -----Original
> Message----- > From:
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org >
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On
> Behalf Of pholden at davtv.com > Sent: Thursday,
> November 02, 2006 2:39 PM > To:
> moq_discuss at moqtalk.org > Subject: Re: [MD] So
> cometh MOQ, what next? > > > Quoting Micah
> <micah at roarkplumbing.com>: > > > Platt, > > > >
> How about WW2. Hitler was doing god's work, and
> his persecution of > > the > Jews > > was
> religious, since Judaism is not a race. Our
> current fiasco in > > Iraq is > > religious.
> Certainly Muslims think it is, even if we are
> just > > acquiring > new > > markets for
> capitalism - while Bush says he is guided by
> god. > > Religion is > > clearly the most
> destructive force in history. I will not give
> you a > history > > course to prove the point
> either, I only hold my children's hands. > >
> Hitler's persecution of the Jews was religious?
> Like our presence in Iraq? > Guess we have a
> different understanding of the word
> "religious." > Anyway, you > don't have to give
> a history course to prove your point. Just a >
> recognized authority will do, if you can find
> one. > > Platt > > > > >
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