[MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

Ron Kulp RKulp at ebwalshinc.com
Tue Nov 7 09:22:20 PST 2006 

  Micah, 
.. sometimes it's not about the point but the way in which you 
 interact with the person you have the debate with.  your war against 
 religeon is blinding you to the slaying of your allies.  religeon is 
 your White whale Ahab. You say you're an atheist, but you subscribe to 
 the MOQ, I don't get it. The MOQ persues intellectual betterment, 
 pirsig himself relates it to tao some places, virtue in others a 
 movement toward betterment, to care, all religeous works have that one 
 thread through all of them, the MOQ. In ZMM pirsig makes that 
 connection of god-good-goodness-godliness with quality.. I do not 
 believe in the judeo/christian god that most people do either, they 
 believe in this metaphsyical "santa clause"..I pursue the MOQ. If you 
 pursue the MOQ then you are technically pursuing
godliness, no?

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of MarshaV
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 9:20 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?


Ron,

Why is this post run-on words without any break?  There have been too many posts like this, and they are nearly impossible to decipher.

Marsha


At 09:14 AM 11/7/2006, you wrote:
>  Micah, .. sometimes it's not about the point but the way in which you 
> interact with the person you have the debate with.  your war against 
> religeon is blinding you to the slaying of your allies.  religeon is 
> your White whale Ahab. You say you're an atheist, but you subscribe to 
> the MOQ, I don't get it. The MOQ persues intellectual betterment, 
> pirsig himself relates it to tao some places, virtue in others a 
> movement toward betterment, to care, all religeous works have that one 
> thread through all of them, the MOQ. In ZMM pirsig makes that 
> connection of god-good-goodness-godliness with quality.. I do not 
> believe in the judeo/christian god that most people do either, they 
> believe in this metaphsyical "santa clause"..I pursue the MOQ. If you 
> pursue the MOQ then you are technically pursuing
> godliness, no?.      -----Original Message----- 
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org 
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah Sent: 
> Monday, November 06, 2006
> 6:21 PM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org Subject: 
> Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? Ron, Jews are an ethnic group or 
> culture as stated in the definition, but not a race, which is also 
> implied by the definition - race is biological, religion is not. Micah 
> -----Original
> Message----- From: 
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On
> Behalf Of Ron Kulp Sent: Monday, November 06,
> 2006 12:26 PM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? 
> Micah, Wikipedia needs your help too. -Ron Ethnic group From 
> Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia An ethnic group is a human population 
> whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a 
> presumed common genealogy or ancestry (Smith, 1986).
> Ethnic groups are also usually united by common cultural, behavioural, 
> linguistic, or religious practices. In this sense, an ethnic group is 
> also a cultural community. Types of ethnic group Members of an ethnic 
> group generally claim a strong cultural continuity over time, although 
> some historians and anthropologists have documented that many of the 
> cultural practices on which various ethnic groups are based are of 
> recent invention (Friedlander 1975, Hobsbawm and Ranger 1983, Sider 
> 1993). On the political front, an ethnic group is distinguished from a 
> nation-state by the former's lack of sovereignty. While ethnicity and 
> race are related concepts (Abizadeh 2001), the concept of ethnicity is 
> rooted in the idea of social groups, marked especially by shared 
> nationality, tribal affiliation, genealogy, religious faith, language, 
> or cultural and traditional origins, whereas race is rooted in the 
> idea of a biological classification of Homo sapiens according to 
> chosen genotypic and/or phenotypic traits, and a belief that such 
> differences among human beings are of such a magnitude as to be 
> classified by the anthropological sense of "race", i.e.
> subspecies. -----Original Message----- From: 
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah Sent: 
> Monday, November 06, 2006
> 11:46 AM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org Subject: 
> Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? Ron, I understand your point, it's 
> wrong. Hitler's persecution of Jews and others was rooted in the 
> German culture dating back to the First Reich, and beyond. But he 
> specifically targeted the Jews. You keep citing biblical passages, and 
> if you believe in the Judeo/Christian god then I understand your 
> confusion on this subject. Judaism would only be considered a race if 
> you believe in god - I don't. Further, if they are the "Chosen 
> People", what does that make the rest of us? So in a way you're right 
> indirectly, because that is the beginning of racism. I won't defend 
> that, you can. If you remove god from your definition of race, then 
> Judaism is not a race. Look at Hitler and his brain trust and count 
> the number of blonde, blue eyed men. You won't need any fingers for 
> that count. I continue to recommend you read "The Rise and Fall of the 
> Third Reich" by William Shirer, to help your understanding - which 
> appears to be quite limited on this subject, at least that's what a 
> friend of my bother's wife's sister's step-uncle's wife says. Yes, we 
> disagree. But we're gonna make it through. Micah -----Original 
> Message----- From:
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On
> Behalf Of Ron Kulp Sent: Monday, November 06,
> 2006 8:29 AM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? 
> Micah, Ethno-religious is the key word, Jews/Hebrews are both ethnic 
> and religious, perhaps the only group considered that. The mass 
> exection of them was  considered a "genocide"The term "genocide" was 
> coined by Raphael Lemkin (1900­1959), a POLISH-JEWISH legal scholar, 
> in 1943, from the roots genos (Greek for family, tribe or RACE) and 
> -cide (Latin - occidere or cideo - to massacre). Jews
> (Hebrew: éÀäåÌãÄéí, Yehudim; Yiddish: ééÄãï,
> Yidn) are followers of Judaism or, more generally, MEMBERS OF THE 
> JEWISH PEOPLE (also known as the Jewish nation, or the Children of 
> Israel), an ETHNO-RELIGIOUS group DESCENDED from the ancient 
> Israelites AND from converts who joined their religion. The term also 
> includes those who have undergone an officially recognized formal 
> process of religious conversion to Judaism. The current Jewish 
> population is over 14.5 million, the majority of whom live in the 
> United States and Israel.
> Answer this-     why do they call Hebrews who 
> convert to Christianity Christian-Jews?, why not just christians? 
> Moses said "let my PEOPLE go" the egyptians enslaved another race not 
> just another religeous group. Hitler persicuted not only jews BUT 
> ALL"INFERIOR" RACES as he saw them,the Arayan race was deemed  
> superior was it not? If you were not white,Blond and blue-eyed, your 
> future was not very bright.
> "the final solution" included the retarded and mentally ill. A 
> darwinistic society and that's how it was presented, it was package 
> and sold to the german public as cleaning up the gene pool and 
> streamlining society.. oh, he had a religous grudge against the jews 
> too, they killed jesus and held the monitary reigns on german 
> christian society too.I really do not know how to present anymore 
> information supporting my claim..I even called a friend of my wifes 
> who is a jew and she said They do consider themselves an ethnic 
> group.sooooo if anyone else out there can help me or give some input 
> it would be much appreciated. Other than that I really can'nt go any 
> further on this subject, Micah. "You can lead a horse to water but you 
> can't make them drink" Unless of course you're a nazi, then with the 
> right "motivation"
> a funnel and some tie downs, you could probably make that sucker 
> drink. At the very least lets agree to disagree on this one...best 
> wishes..
> -Ron -----Original Message----- From: 
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah Sent: 
> Saturday, November 04,
> 2006 7:40 PM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? 
> Ron, You did an example of the problem with confusing race and 
> religion. You compared Jews and Arabs. It should be Jews and Muslims 
> (or
> whatever) or Hebrews and Arabs. Jews are only a race if you believe in 
> god. Are Christians a race by your reasoning? Was Sammy Davis Jr. in 
> the Ethno/religious definition of Jews as a race? Actually my 
> father-in-law is Jewish and I couldn't distinguish him ethnically from 
> a Palestinian (the religious affiliation being unknown), because 
> they're both Semites. I can't see faiths, like skin color. Micah 
> -----Original Message----- From:
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On
> Behalf Of Ron Kulp Sent: Friday, November 03,
> 2006 12:19 PM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? 
> Well, first off, they call the Holocost a "genocide" The term 
> "genocide" was coined by Raphael Lemkin (1900-1959), a Polish-Jewish 
> legal scholar, in 1943, from the roots genos (Greek for family, tribe 
> or race) and -cide (Latin - occidere or cideo - to massacre).
> Religeon is also criteria in the definition, so I believe we are both 
> correct to some degree, I was just asking you to consider That the 
> holocost was not purely a religeous persicution. Hitler deemed them a 
> lower form of human, a subspecies. This is terrible to say But if you 
> lined up a group of semites, chances are you could separate the jews 
> from the Arabs, and that's as far as I'll go on that one. _Ron 
> -----Original Message----- From:
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah Sent: 
> Friday, November 03, 2006 12:40 PM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org 
> Subject:
> Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? Ron, Iroquois is a subset of 
> American Indian. Hebrew is a subset of Semite, as is Palestinian.
> Nobody says the Muslims are a race, or Christians, why do you think 
> Jews are a race?
> Micah -----Original Message----- From: 
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On
> Behalf Of Ron Kulp Sent: Friday, November 03,
> 2006 11:33 AM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? 
> Ron, I cannot convert to American Indian, but I can convert to 
> Judaism. The line is not blurred. The Jews are religious a group, not 
> an ethnic or racial group. Micah But Micah, do you see what you're 
> saying? You could become part of the Iroqoi if you wanted to, likewise 
> with the jews, you would not share the same ethnic roots with either, 
> sure you would'nt be able to claim ethnic rights of being native 
> american but you could'nt claim ethnic rights of being a semite 
> either. Am I makin sense? -Ron -----Original Message----- From:
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah Sent: 
> Friday, November 03, 2006
> 12:13 PM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org Subject: 
> Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? Ron, I cannot convert to American 
> Indian, but I can convert to Judaism. The line is not blurred.
> The Jews are religious a group, not an ethnic or racial group. Micah 
> -----Original
> Message----- From: 
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On
> Behalf Of Ron Kulp Sent: Friday, November 03,
> 2006 11:08 AM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? 
> Micah, the distinction between "racial" and "ethnic" seems to be 
> blurred, I have not found where this is acuratly defined. But the 
> nazi's used to single them out by name and apearance, dare I go down 
> the list of racial slurrs? No doubt Hitler used religeon but he used 
> "racial superiority" to support his endeavores too.
> -Ron -----Original Message----- From: 
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah Sent: 
> Friday, November 03, 2006
> 11:57 AM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org Subject: 
> Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? Ron, "The Rise and Fall of the 
> Third Reich" by Shirer, chronicles Hitler's use of religion in waging 
> war and persecuting peoples. Yes, the Hebrews are a racial group, but 
> Jews are a religious group, not a race. By the way Palestinians are 
> Semites, does that make people like Sharon anti-Semitic? Micah 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org 
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On
> Behalf Of Ron Kulp Sent: Friday, November 03,
> 2006 10:44 AM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? 
> Micah, Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with 
> the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, 
> I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." As a boy, Hitler attended to 
> the Catholic church and experienced the anti-Semitic attitude of his 
> culture. In his book, Mein Kampf, Hitler reveals himself as a 
> fanatical believer in God and country I've already hit platt with this 
> and he changed his opinion of it. By the way Hebrews are a racial 
> group too. -Ron -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org 
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah Sent: 
> Friday, November 03, 2006
> 11:36 AM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org Subject: 
> Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? Platt, The Jews are a religious 
> group. The holocaust was the persecution of Jews, therefore it was 
> religious persecution. If the Jews were a race, it would have been 
> racism, but they are religious group and that makes it religious 
> persecution. Micah -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org 
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On
> Behalf Of pholden at davtv.com Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 7:42 PM 
> To:
> moq_discuss at moqtalk.org Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? 
> Quoting Micah
> <micah at roarkplumbing.com>: > Platt, > > Was group of people did Hitler 
> persecute? Was it the Jews? Aren't the > Jews a > religious group? So 
> isn't that religious persecution? > > Micah I don't consider the 
> Holocaust motivated by religious belief. I agree with Pirsig that it 
> was caused by "low level static social and biological patterns whose 
> overall purpose was to retard the evolution of truth and Dynamic 
> Quality." But Hitler did say he was God's appointed savior of the 
> German people. So in that twisted sense, the Nazis cyncially used 
> religious belief to gain and hold power. But you still haven't 
> provided evidence to support your assertion that religion is "the most 
> destructive force in history." I'm not saying such evidence doesn't 
> exist, just that I haven't seen it. Platt > > > -----Original
> Message----- > From: 
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org >
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On
> Behalf Of pholden at davtv.com > Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 2:39 
> PM > To:
> moq_discuss at moqtalk.org > Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? 
> > > > Quoting Micah
> <micah at roarkplumbing.com>: > > > Platt, > > > > How about WW2. Hitler 
> was doing god's work, and his persecution of > > the > Jews > > was 
> religious, since Judaism is not a race. Our current fiasco in > > Iraq 
> is > > religious.
> Certainly Muslims think it is, even if we are just > > acquiring > new 
> > > markets for capitalism - while Bush says he is guided by god. > > 
> Religion is > > clearly the most destructive force in history. I will 
> not give you a > history > > course to prove the point either, I only 
> hold my children's hands. > > Hitler's persecution of the Jews was 
> religious?
> Like our presence in Iraq? > Guess we have a different understanding 
> of the word "religious." > Anyway, you > don't have to give a history 
> course to prove your point. Just a > recognized authority will do, if 
> you can find one. > > Platt > > > > >
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