[MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

Ron Kulp RKulp at ebwalshinc.com
Tue Nov 7 09:30:10 PST 2006 

 
Well Marsha,
When I'm trying to get my work finished and I get all involved in trying to 
Express an Idea here too, I tend to forget line breaks, spaces, proper spelling,
Cap locks, grammer ect. Thank you for pointing it out..
I was beginning to doubt if anyone was really reading anything I had to say.
-Ron
-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of MarshaV
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 9:20 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?


Ron,

Why is this post run-on words without any break?  There have been too many posts like this, and they are nearly impossible to decipher.

Marsha


At 09:14 AM 11/7/2006, you wrote:
>  Micah, .. sometimes it's not about the point but the way in which you 
> interact with the person you have the debate with.  your war against 
> religeon is blinding you to the slaying of your allies.  religeon is 
> your White whale Ahab. You say you're an atheist, but you subscribe to 
> the MOQ, I don't get it. The MOQ persues intellectual betterment, 
> pirsig himself relates it to tao some places, virtue in others a 
> movement toward betterment, to care, all religeous works have that one 
> thread through all of them, the MOQ. In ZMM pirsig makes that 
> connection of god-good-goodness-godliness with quality.. I do not 
> believe in the judeo/christian god that most people do either, they 
> believe in this metaphsyical "santa clause"..I pursue the MOQ. If you 
> pursue the MOQ then you are technically pursuing
> godliness, no?.      -----Original Message----- 
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org 
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah Sent: 
> Monday, November 06, 2006
> 6:21 PM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org Subject: 
> Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? Ron, Jews are an ethnic group or 
> culture as stated in the definition, but not a race, which is also 
> implied by the definition - race is biological, religion is not. Micah 
> -----Original
> Message----- From: 
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On
> Behalf Of Ron Kulp Sent: Monday, November 06,
> 2006 12:26 PM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? 
> Micah, Wikipedia needs your help too. -Ron Ethnic group From 
> Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia An ethnic group is a human population 
> whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a 
> presumed common genealogy or ancestry (Smith, 1986).
> Ethnic groups are also usually united by common cultural, behavioural, 
> linguistic, or religious practices. In this sense, an ethnic group is 
> also a cultural community. Types of ethnic group Members of an ethnic 
> group generally claim a strong cultural continuity over time, although 
> some historians and anthropologists have documented that many of the 
> cultural practices on which various ethnic groups are based are of 
> recent invention (Friedlander 1975, Hobsbawm and Ranger 1983, Sider 
> 1993). On the political front, an ethnic group is distinguished from a 
> nation-state by the former's lack of sovereignty. While ethnicity and 
> race are related concepts (Abizadeh 2001), the concept of ethnicity is 
> rooted in the idea of social groups, marked especially by shared 
> nationality, tribal affiliation, genealogy, religious faith, language, 
> or cultural and traditional origins, whereas race is rooted in the 
> idea of a biological classification of Homo sapiens according to 
> chosen genotypic and/or phenotypic traits, and a belief that such 
> differences among human beings are of such a magnitude as to be 
> classified by the anthropological sense of "race", i.e.
> subspecies. -----Original Message----- From: 
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah Sent: 
> Monday, November 06, 2006
> 11:46 AM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org Subject: 
> Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? Ron, I understand your point, it's 
> wrong. Hitler's persecution of Jews and others was rooted in the 
> German culture dating back to the First Reich, and beyond. But he 
> specifically targeted the Jews. You keep citing biblical passages, and 
> if you believe in the Judeo/Christian god then I understand your 
> confusion on this subject. Judaism would only be considered a race if 
> you believe in god - I don't. Further, if they are the "Chosen 
> People", what does that make the rest of us? So in a way you're right 
> indirectly, because that is the beginning of racism. I won't defend 
> that, you can. If you remove god from your definition of race, then 
> Judaism is not a race. Look at Hitler and his brain trust and count 
> the number of blonde, blue eyed men. You won't need any fingers for 
> that count. I continue to recommend you read "The Rise and Fall of the 
> Third Reich" by William Shirer, to help your understanding - which 
> appears to be quite limited on this subject, at least that's what a 
> friend of my bother's wife's sister's step-uncle's wife says. Yes, we 
> disagree. But we're gonna make it through. Micah -----Original 
> Message----- From:
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On
> Behalf Of Ron Kulp Sent: Monday, November 06,
> 2006 8:29 AM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? 
> Micah, Ethno-religious is the key word, Jews/Hebrews are both ethnic 
> and religious, perhaps the only group considered that. The mass 
> exection of them was  considered a "genocide"The term "genocide" was 
> coined by Raphael Lemkin (1900­1959), a POLISH-JEWISH legal scholar, 
> in 1943, from the roots genos (Greek for family, tribe or RACE) and 
> -cide (Latin - occidere or cideo - to massacre). Jews
> (Hebrew: éÀäåÌãÄéí, Yehudim; Yiddish: ééÄãï,
> Yidn) are followers of Judaism or, more generally, MEMBERS OF THE 
> JEWISH PEOPLE (also known as the Jewish nation, or the Children of 
> Israel), an ETHNO-RELIGIOUS group DESCENDED from the ancient 
> Israelites AND from converts who joined their religion. The term also 
> includes those who have undergone an officially recognized formal 
> process of religious conversion to Judaism. The current Jewish 
> population is over 14.5 million, the majority of whom live in the 
> United States and Israel.
> Answer this-     why do they call Hebrews who 
> convert to Christianity Christian-Jews?, why not just christians? 
> Moses said "let my PEOPLE go" the egyptians enslaved another race not 
> just another religeous group. Hitler persicuted not only jews BUT 
> ALL"INFERIOR" RACES as he saw them,the Arayan race was deemed  
> superior was it not? If you were not white,Blond and blue-eyed, your 
> future was not very bright.
> "the final solution" included the retarded and mentally ill. A 
> darwinistic society and that's how it was presented, it was package 
> and sold to the german public as cleaning up the gene pool and 
> streamlining society.. oh, he had a religous grudge against the jews 
> too, they killed jesus and held the monitary reigns on german 
> christian society too.I really do not know how to present anymore 
> information supporting my claim..I even called a friend of my wifes 
> who is a jew and she said They do consider themselves an ethnic 
> group.sooooo if anyone else out there can help me or give some input 
> it would be much appreciated. Other than that I really can'nt go any 
> further on this subject, Micah. "You can lead a horse to water but you 
> can't make them drink" Unless of course you're a nazi, then with the 
> right "motivation"
> a funnel and some tie downs, you could probably make that sucker 
> drink. At the very least lets agree to disagree on this one...best 
> wishes..
> -Ron -----Original Message----- From: 
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah Sent: 
> Saturday, November 04,
> 2006 7:40 PM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? 
> Ron, You did an example of the problem with confusing race and 
> religion. You compared Jews and Arabs. It should be Jews and Muslims 
> (or
> whatever) or Hebrews and Arabs. Jews are only a race if you believe in 
> god. Are Christians a race by your reasoning? Was Sammy Davis Jr. in 
> the Ethno/religious definition of Jews as a race? Actually my 
> father-in-law is Jewish and I couldn't distinguish him ethnically from 
> a Palestinian (the religious affiliation being unknown), because 
> they're both Semites. I can't see faiths, like skin color. Micah 
> -----Original Message----- From:
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On
> Behalf Of Ron Kulp Sent: Friday, November 03,
> 2006 12:19 PM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? 
> Well, first off, they call the Holocost a "genocide" The term 
> "genocide" was coined by Raphael Lemkin (1900-1959), a Polish-Jewish 
> legal scholar, in 1943, from the roots genos (Greek for family, tribe 
> or race) and -cide (Latin - occidere or cideo - to massacre).
> Religeon is also criteria in the definition, so I believe we are both 
> correct to some degree, I was just asking you to consider That the 
> holocost was not purely a religeous persicution. Hitler deemed them a 
> lower form of human, a subspecies. This is terrible to say But if you 
> lined up a group of semites, chances are you could separate the jews 
> from the Arabs, and that's as far as I'll go on that one. _Ron 
> -----Original Message----- From:
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah Sent: 
> Friday, November 03, 2006 12:40 PM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org 
> Subject:
> Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? Ron, Iroquois is a subset of 
> American Indian. Hebrew is a subset of Semite, as is Palestinian.
> Nobody says the Muslims are a race, or Christians, why do you think 
> Jews are a race?
> Micah -----Original Message----- From: 
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On
> Behalf Of Ron Kulp Sent: Friday, November 03,
> 2006 11:33 AM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? 
> Ron, I cannot convert to American Indian, but I can convert to 
> Judaism. The line is not blurred. The Jews are religious a group, not 
> an ethnic or racial group. Micah But Micah, do you see what you're 
> saying? You could become part of the Iroqoi if you wanted to, likewise 
> with the jews, you would not share the same ethnic roots with either, 
> sure you would'nt be able to claim ethnic rights of being native 
> american but you could'nt claim ethnic rights of being a semite 
> either. Am I makin sense? -Ron -----Original Message----- From:
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah Sent: 
> Friday, November 03, 2006
> 12:13 PM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org Subject: 
> Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? Ron, I cannot convert to American 
> Indian, but I can convert to Judaism. The line is not blurred.
> The Jews are religious a group, not an ethnic or racial group. Micah 
> -----Original
> Message----- From: 
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On
> Behalf Of Ron Kulp Sent: Friday, November 03,
> 2006 11:08 AM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? 
> Micah, the distinction between "racial" and "ethnic" seems to be 
> blurred, I have not found where this is acuratly defined. But the 
> nazi's used to single them out by name and apearance, dare I go down 
> the list of racial slurrs? No doubt Hitler used religeon but he used 
> "racial superiority" to support his endeavores too.
> -Ron -----Original Message----- From: 
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah Sent: 
> Friday, November 03, 2006
> 11:57 AM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org Subject: 
> Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? Ron, "The Rise and Fall of the 
> Third Reich" by Shirer, chronicles Hitler's use of religion in waging 
> war and persecuting peoples. Yes, the Hebrews are a racial group, but 
> Jews are a religious group, not a race. By the way Palestinians are 
> Semites, does that make people like Sharon anti-Semitic? Micah 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org 
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On
> Behalf Of Ron Kulp Sent: Friday, November 03,
> 2006 10:44 AM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? 
> Micah, Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with 
> the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, 
> I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." As a boy, Hitler attended to 
> the Catholic church and experienced the anti-Semitic attitude of his 
> culture. In his book, Mein Kampf, Hitler reveals himself as a 
> fanatical believer in God and country I've already hit platt with this 
> and he changed his opinion of it. By the way Hebrews are a racial 
> group too. -Ron -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org 
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah Sent: 
> Friday, November 03, 2006
> 11:36 AM To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org Subject: 
> Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? Platt, The Jews are a religious 
> group. The holocaust was the persecution of Jews, therefore it was 
> religious persecution. If the Jews were a race, it would have been 
> racism, but they are religious group and that makes it religious 
> persecution. Micah -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org 
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On
> Behalf Of pholden at davtv.com Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 7:42 PM 
> To:
> moq_discuss at moqtalk.org Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? 
> Quoting Micah
> <micah at roarkplumbing.com>: > Platt, > > Was group of people did Hitler 
> persecute? Was it the Jews? Aren't the > Jews a > religious group? So 
> isn't that religious persecution? > > Micah I don't consider the 
> Holocaust motivated by religious belief. I agree with Pirsig that it 
> was caused by "low level static social and biological patterns whose 
> overall purpose was to retard the evolution of truth and Dynamic 
> Quality." But Hitler did say he was God's appointed savior of the 
> German people. So in that twisted sense, the Nazis cyncially used 
> religious belief to gain and hold power. But you still haven't 
> provided evidence to support your assertion that religion is "the most 
> destructive force in history." I'm not saying such evidence doesn't 
> exist, just that I haven't seen it. Platt > > > -----Original
> Message----- > From: 
> moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org >
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On
> Behalf Of pholden at davtv.com > Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 2:39 
> PM > To:
> moq_discuss at moqtalk.org > Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next? 
> > > > Quoting Micah
> <micah at roarkplumbing.com>: > > > Platt, > > > > How about WW2. Hitler 
> was doing god's work, and his persecution of > > the > Jews > > was 
> religious, since Judaism is not a race. Our current fiasco in > > Iraq 
> is > > religious.
> Certainly Muslims think it is, even if we are just > > acquiring > new 
> > > markets for capitalism - while Bush says he is guided by god. > > 
> Religion is > > clearly the most destructive force in history. I will 
> not give you a > history > > course to prove the point either, I only 
> hold my children's hands. > > Hitler's persecution of the Jews was 
> religious?
> Like our presence in Iraq? > Guess we have a different understanding 
> of the word "religious." > Anyway, you > don't have to give a history 
> course to prove your point. Just a > recognized authority will do, if 
> you can find one. > > Platt > > > > >
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