[MD] tiny skull... change... nothingness...

[Heather Perella]

     [Ham]
> No.  I purposely did not say "experience" because
> nothingness is what we
> DON'T experience.  Surely, you can understand that
> in order to apprehend and
> beome cognizant of something in existence you have
> to divide it from
> everything else.

     Only to a point can I divide something from
everything else.  Then it is crazy to go any further. 
Then I realize how everything depends on everything
else for further definition.  So, I notice that last
statement of mine more often.

     [Ham]
  The "divider" is nothingness --
> which is your proprietary
> Self as well as that which you can't experience.
> Nothingness is the empty
> space that is not experienced but which divides
> every entity and event in
> space/time from every other.

     You're assuming that a nothingness separates
every entity.  I say assume, for as you know, I don't
see this space/nothingness separating every entity. 
To say there is a nothingness separating every entity
denies a connection between these entities and
basically I find my train of thought slipping from one
entity to another, noticing how these entities are
joined into an event that includes both and all
entities.  For some reason instead of noticing the
forest, the ecosystem for example, your just seeing a
tree here, then nothingness, then a tree here, then
nothingness - I'm seeing trees and forest.

     [Ham] 
> That's the most outrageous copout for failing to
> explain the mystery of the
> universe I've ever heard.

    There again.  You've never solved the mystery of
the universe.  Nobody has, but yet, Ham will stand
alone as the only person ever to be born on this earth
to know the mystery of this universe, but never be
able to explain it to somebody, even his own self -
for a mystery is still here Ham.  You won't solve it,
sorry to disappoint you.  It's not a cop out.  It's
the reality of this universe.  Without mystery,
nothing new would ever happen, at least that's my
cop-out opinion.  Seasons change.

     [Ham]
  If you really buy into
> Case's "Shit happens"
> philosophy, I have grave doubts that your intellect
> has evolved sufficiently
> to comprehend anything in this forum.

     Seeing that you alone Ham have the ego big enough
to think you've conquered all problems and solved
everything in the world, but yet nobody's gettin' ya
fully, not even yourself - change your thesis page
again.  With all the changes and mysteries in this
universe you'll never keep up with the real story.


     [Ham]
> I don't ask you to believe in a God.  I want you to
> understand that there is
> an ultimate source of reality beyond differences and
> divisions.

     Your the only one in this discussion between
yourself and me that keeps seeing differences and
divisions.  I don't see 'em, and keep letting you know
reality is one, but you'll keep dividing it up and
telling me it doesn't have divisions.  Back and forth.

     [Ham]
  Your
> "mysterious notion" is the belief that this source
> is your awareness.  The
> only aspect of your awareness that is real is the
> Value you sense in a
> differential way.  Trees, fish, houses, and bodies
> are "real" to your
> intellectual understanding, but they do not
> constitute ultimate reality.

     Trees-fish-houses, etc... are connected, not
differential.  Differential is your thesis, not mine. 
Don't get that mixed up.  As to ultimate reality -
this is it Ham.  And when we die ultimate reality will
still be here.  Ultimate reality is here on earth and
includes all aspects of life that go on and on passed
death even maybe.  What would that look like?  Guess
what, it's a mystery to me, and yet passed the door to
death is still walk upon this Way.  Stop and smell the
autumn leaves if you can like I can in the north here,
and you'll notice something else about this ultimate
reality.  Or you can imagine flying spaghetti
monsters, it's all up to you, and that will be your
ultimate reality.  Mine's not just empirical, it's as
fleeting and soft as quietness - it has no end and my
fingers can't even fully touch it.


     [Ham]
> Your conception of God as nothingness blocks your
> understanding.  Nothing
> can come from nothing, so you've rejected the
> source.  

     Oh, know, the source has mystery.  The source can
even make something new that the source never even
knew before.  The source is creative.

     [Ham]
Nothingness is the
> ground of existence, not of Essence.  It's absurd to
> regard Essence as
> Nothingness.  No wonder you see it as a "mystery"!

     Exactly.  I can see it, too.  So now I've put
forth another choice.  All these choices, hummm.  

     [Ham] 
> Essence is absolute
> potentiality -- the EXACT OPPOSITE of Nothingness.

     Potential for what?  What will potentialize? 
Mysterious A?

     [Ham] 
> To regard the primary
> source as nothingness is to reject the essential
> value of anything.

     Oh contrary to what you may believe, to have the
primary source nothingness and essence, together, is
to allow for freedom, creativity, and a shape of the
universe that is very irregular, raw, and yet, provide
form.  What does that look like?  Look outside and
notice how the lines and shapes of everything bridge
to one another in such odd ways.  It's totally
perplexing, but I can still point out entities.  Yet,
the entity can shift from being a tree to a grove of
trees, to a forest, to birds flyin' - it's stupendous!

     [Ham]
  That'snihilism in the extreme.

     You've always constricted your perspective to
it's this or that, one or the other.  And yet, I talk
of a universe that is essence with nothingness.  How
can I do that?  Simple - I just do - for it's a
universe that for me is reality.  I live.  I survive. 
I love.  I'm sad.  I'm happy.  I'm a human being, and
I have this perspective, and I can hold a normal
conversation with other people.  Nothing odd about me,
other than this incompleteness about this reality that
I am included with.  You'll never solved this reality
Ham.

     [Ham]
> Then, by all means, go to the woods and fill your
> mind with the nothingness
> of quietude.  Blow yourself away with the roar of
> Niagara Falls.  If you
> think this will resolve your mystery, there's
> nothing I can tell you, except
> that your philosophy is full of it.

     Full of mystery and definition - you bet cha! 
Nobody's ever solved it Ham.  I'm not looking to
resolve this mystery.  I accept that it is here, and
at the same time I'm learning so much from this
reality.  Yet, I've been able to understand that I've
got this tiny skull.  You'll end up like all the rest
chasing butterflies, chasing dreams that will end up
disappearing and then What?  Where did everything go? 
What's that?  What's this?  How, what, where, when,
why?  You'll never complete this reality, because it
is not complete.  Creativity abounds everywhere!

     Has this mystery stumped ya yet?  I'm trying not
to bound my head to hard on what seems to be you
thinking you can figure it all out, then I come along
and say something totally different than your two
choice belief systems.  I'm still in this discussion,
if you are, for this discussion is enabling me to
reflect on what I'm livin'.  It's givin' me an
opportunity to further spout the quiet essential
reality that is.  So if you may, let's keep talkin',
even if the discussion's apparent outcome will not
convince either of us of the others
experience/reality/essence, anyways...  I'm still
game.  At least we may individually may be gettin'
somethin' out of it.

Thanks,
SA  


 
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