[MD] tiny skull... change... nothingness...

[David M]

Hi Ham

How to experience nothingness?

Take one ice cube.
Let it melt?
Where is the cube now?

Collect water.
Freeze into cube.
Where did the cube come from?

Boil some water?
Where did the wetness go?

David M

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ham Priday" <hampday1 at verizon.net>
To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] tiny skull... change... nothingness...


>
> SA --
>
> [Ham]:
>> This is the nothingness we encounter (but do not
>> directly experience) in existence.
>
> [SA]:
>> We encounter but do not experience?  Doesn't
>> encounter imply experience?
>
> No.  I purposely did not say "experience" because nothingness is what we
> DON'T experience.  Surely, you can understand that in order to apprehend 
> and
> beome cognizant of something in existence you have to divide it from
> everything else.  The "divider" is nothingness -- which is your 
> proprietary
> Self as well as that which you can't experience. Nothingness is the empty
> space that is not experienced but which divides every entity and event in
> space/time from every other.
>
> [SA]:
>> I guess you're saying there are only two choices
>> here?  I"m not so sure about that.  If I'm not getting
>> what these two are, exactly, then would not my
>> beliefs not fit exactly into these two belief systems?
>> Or, just because I'm not getting it, doesn't mean I've
>> unknowingly chosen one or the other.
>> I'm wondering, since I believe in a mysterious
>> notion, such as Case's example of Job and how
>> Shit happens or Shit isn't happening, a trickster notion,
>> a notion of lucky hit or miss, but at the same time I'm
>> not undermining my own free will.
>
> That's the most outrageous copout for failing to explain the mystery of 
> the
> universe I've ever heard.  If you really buy into Case's "Shit happens"
> philosophy, I have grave doubts that your intellect has evolved 
> sufficiently
> to comprehend anything in this forum.
>
> [SA]:
>> Sure I can choose which reality I want to
>> experience, and I don't know all, so, whatever I
>> choose there's always that one tiny little
>> understanding - I don't know all, and the world is
>> not only human logos.
>
> [Ham repeats]:
>> We can NOT KNOW the truth about
>> ultimate reality.
>>
> > Therefore, we have a choice.  We can either believe
>> that ultimate reality is Nothingness -- which is to deny
>> an ultimate reality, or we can believe that it is Absolute
>> -- which is to believe in a primary source (i.e., Oneness,
>> Essence, Being, or God).
>
> [SA]:
>> Here's been a set-back for me all along.
>> How are these two belief systems separated, especially
>> if I don't know ultimate reality and don't believe reality
>> is ultimate.  Also, I believe in G-d, Oneness,
>> etc..., but also, I don't believe this notion of G-d,
>> Oneness has a baseline, ultimate reality.  For me, an
>> ultimate reality is a notion that 'All can be wrapped
>> up in some defining principle.'  As Marsha mentioned,
>> the ultimate reality changes and thus, is not based upon
>> any FINAL notion at all.  This is included with my
>> belief as to how can there be an underlying principle,
>> but yet I believe in G-d.  Not only are there changes,
>> but the ultimate reality is nothingness. Yet, I still
>> believe in a oneness/G-d, but this ultimate reality
>>that is G-d, Oneness, etc... is not ultimate, or baseline,
>> etc...  I would describe it as nothingness or quietness.
>> Thus, G-d always changes and is not 'being' ultimate,
>> yet, how can I speak of 'something' that is ultimately
>> 'everything', as I do with sureness, but still incorporate
>> a mysterious notion? ...
>
> I don't ask you to believe in a God.  I want you to understand that there 
> is
> an ultimate source of reality beyond differences and divisions.  Your
> "mysterious notion" is the belief that this source is your awareness.  The
> only aspect of your awareness that is real is the Value you sense in a
> differential way.  Trees, fish, houses, and bodies are "real" to your
> intellectual understanding, but they do not constitute ultimate reality.
>
> [SA]:
>> I'll explain.  It's not a notion of skepticism that I
>> have.  It's not a notion that I can't decide or choose.
>> It's a notion that is not accepting the concept that
>> G-d is somehow ultimate.  Does that mean
>> something is more ultimate than G-d?  No. What it
>> means is G-d, not just my understanding of G-d, but
>> G-d doesn't come to some ultimate conclusion as to
>> what reality is - ultimate, baseline reality.  This
>> is not just because I don't know what this ultimate
>> reality is, I'm also saying that reality can't be
>> constrained by some ultimate baseline.  Ultimate
>> reality/G-d/nature is creative.  It's not just me not
>> knowing everything. It is me experiencing a reality
>> that is not fully defined.  Reality itself doesn't have
>> an ultimate Way.  That's why I can't accept the two
>> choices your giving.  I'm seeing reality is ultimately
>> nothingness named G-d, thus, G-d has no ultimate
>> baseline reality.  This mystery notion I'm experiencing
>> is not just me.  It is reality, too.
>
> Your conception of God as nothingness blocks your understanding.  Nothing
> can come from nothing, so you've rejected the source.  Nothingness is the
> ground of existence, not of Essence.  It's absurd to regard Essence as
> Nothingness.  No wonder you see it as a "mystery"!  Essence is absolute
> potentiality -- the EXACT OPPOSITE of Nothingness.  To regard the primary
> source as nothingness is to reject the essential value of anything. 
> That's
> nihilism in the extreme.
>
> [SA]:
>> I do now see where your coming from, and I have
>> shown you where I'm not fitting into your pigeon-
>> hole two belief system, at least I've tried to.
>> What I've stated about my belief is so quiet that
>> you've got to put your thoughts aside and listen
>> attentively.  The woods provide an opening to this
>> deep quiet, and so I directly experience this quiet
>> with these trees and streams.  Loud roaring waterfalls,
>> such as Niagara Falls, also blow my mind away and
>> I'm struck and opened to a clear experience and notion
>> that I can even cultivate thoughts upon to convey. This
>> experience is not just sensible, but comes from inside
>> the mind, too.
>
> Then, by all means, go to the woods and fill your mind with the 
> nothingness
> of quietude.  Blow yourself away with the roar of Niagara Falls.  If you
> think this will resolve your mystery, there's nothing I can tell you, 
> except
> that your philosophy is full of it.
>
> Cheers,
> Ham
>
>
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