[MD] scatological economics

[ian glendinning]

Good post Case.

Several points there that we've agreed on before.
Part of the problem is that deliberately simplistic "tooth and claw"
competitive characterisation of Darwinism, rather than the more subtle
game theory / enginering models of the MoQ and other neo-Darwinist
philosphies. What if ... ?

I agree the possible and the impossible are not black and white.
Hand me that Duct Tape.
There is a middle way.
Ian

On 11/19/06, Case <Case at ispots.com> wrote:
> dmb and gav,
>
> A couple of quick points: as has been pointed out in a couple of different
> threads on capitalism, the system is not a moral system. Its ends and means
> may be judged in moral terms but the system is amoral. The capitalist system
> is based on a kind of tooth and claw Darwinian model and succeeds by
> appealing to greed and self interest. Blah, blah, blah no need to continue
> with that.
>
> But dmb's asks us to "...imagine what sort of things might happen if nations
> used that martial spirit to organize people around an activity that built
> things instead of dropping bombs on them."
>
> I don't think you can fully appreciate the tragedy here. For some of us in
> this forum that is not something we have to imagine. It is something we
> remember. There was a 10 or 15 year period in our lifetimes when that is
> exactly what happened.
>
> The space program was a national community activity. Astronauts and
> scientist were respected and sought after. There were astronaut bubble gum
> trading cards. Their exploits were viewed by millions live on TV. There was
> nothing we could not do.
>
> I have mentioned several times that when I first saw the movie Apollo 13 I
> cried. Despite the bleeding heart image I am working on I am not an
> emotional guy. But at some point during that movie I realized anew that WE
> did that. With guts and brains, slide rules and duct tape we put men on the
> moon and brought them home safely.
>
> Collectively we could solve any problem and do the impossible. What brought
> me to tears was not the glory of dreaming the impossible dream. It was the
> fact that having dreamt it, having done it, we threw it all away. We turned
> our backs and returned to the making of war and the raiding of corporations
> and the selling of junk bonds and a thousand petty pointless things.
>
> But you don't have to ask me to imagine it. I have seen what it can be like
> and I have seen how easily it can be snatched away.
>
> Case
>
>
>
>
> Gav said:
> war is very very good for the economy. with war billions are made on
> producing and using weapons. then after the devastation other corporations
> make billions from rebuilding. war is very sensible in a capitalist economy.
>
>  ...illness is very good too. cancer, heart disease, depression etc make
> trillions for the medical and pharmaceutical industries. better to cultivate
>
> then treat (porrly) disease, rather than prevent it. where's the dough in
> prevention?
>
> dmb says:
> Yep. The problem stems from the fact that cash value and humane values are
> often at odds with each. But what I really want to focus on here is that
> evil little piece of conventional wisdom; war is good for the economy. I'd
> like to make a case that this is one of the most destructive nuggets of
> bullshit that ever circulated in our culture. And even if it were true, what
>
> kind of insane value system would it take to conclude that death and
> destruction is an acceptable way to achieve economic vitality? Maybe a more
> honest and direct way to put it is, "evil is good for the economy". But
> there is also a rational reason to reject that absurd lie. The truth is NOT
> that war is good for the economy. What's really going on there is that war
> serves as a rallying point for collective action. War is one of those times
> when right-wingers forget about how much they love the individuals and hate
> collective action. War is a cause that engages the efforts of millions for a
>
> single purpose. What's good for the economy is not the loss of life and
> treaure entailed by war, its the productivity of collective and co-ordinated
>
> action. What's good for the economy is the large scale economic activity
> that war generates. But imagine what sort of things might happen if nations
> used that martial spirit to organize people around an activity that built
> things instead of dropping bombs on them. Imagine what we could do with that
>
> martial spirit if it were applied to healing instead of killing. That would
> be good for the economy. I'm talking about the new and improved, death-free
> martial spirit. Now with 90% less evil! Because, of course, the economy is
> supposed to serve people and not the other way around.
>
> How about if we say that hunger, disease and ignorance are the axis of evil.
>
> If we're stuck with war metaphors, let's demonize those things and make war
> on them. If we're stuck with money as the supreme value, then let's at least
>
> insist that it very much matters how profit is generated.
>
> Ooops. gotta go. Don't wanna be late for work. gotta get to the bomb factory
>
> by noon.
>
>
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