[MD] scatological economics

[Case]

dmb and gav,

A couple of quick points: as has been pointed out in a couple of different
threads on capitalism, the system is not a moral system. Its ends and means
may be judged in moral terms but the system is amoral. The capitalist system
is based on a kind of tooth and claw Darwinian model and succeeds by
appealing to greed and self interest. Blah, blah, blah no need to continue
with that.

But dmb's asks us to "...imagine what sort of things might happen if nations
used that martial spirit to organize people around an activity that built
things instead of dropping bombs on them."

I don't think you can fully appreciate the tragedy here. For some of us in
this forum that is not something we have to imagine. It is something we
remember. There was a 10 or 15 year period in our lifetimes when that is
exactly what happened. 

The space program was a national community activity. Astronauts and
scientist were respected and sought after. There were astronaut bubble gum
trading cards. Their exploits were viewed by millions live on TV. There was
nothing we could not do. 

I have mentioned several times that when I first saw the movie Apollo 13 I
cried. Despite the bleeding heart image I am working on I am not an
emotional guy. But at some point during that movie I realized anew that WE
did that. With guts and brains, slide rules and duct tape we put men on the
moon and brought them home safely. 

Collectively we could solve any problem and do the impossible. What brought
me to tears was not the glory of dreaming the impossible dream. It was the
fact that having dreamt it, having done it, we threw it all away. We turned
our backs and returned to the making of war and the raiding of corporations
and the selling of junk bonds and a thousand petty pointless things.

But you don't have to ask me to imagine it. I have seen what it can be like
and I have seen how easily it can be snatched away.

Case




Gav said:
war is very very good for the economy. with war billions are made on 
producing and using weapons. then after the devastation other corporations 
make billions from rebuilding. war is very sensible in a capitalist economy.

  ...illness is very good too. cancer, heart disease, depression etc make 
trillions for the medical and pharmaceutical industries. better to cultivate

then treat (porrly) disease, rather than prevent it. where's the dough in 
prevention?

dmb says:
Yep. The problem stems from the fact that cash value and humane values are 
often at odds with each. But what I really want to focus on here is that 
evil little piece of conventional wisdom; war is good for the economy. I'd 
like to make a case that this is one of the most destructive nuggets of 
bullshit that ever circulated in our culture. And even if it were true, what

kind of insane value system would it take to conclude that death and 
destruction is an acceptable way to achieve economic vitality? Maybe a more 
honest and direct way to put it is, "evil is good for the economy". But 
there is also a rational reason to reject that absurd lie. The truth is NOT 
that war is good for the economy. What's really going on there is that war 
serves as a rallying point for collective action. War is one of those times 
when right-wingers forget about how much they love the individuals and hate 
collective action. War is a cause that engages the efforts of millions for a

single purpose. What's good for the economy is not the loss of life and 
treaure entailed by war, its the productivity of collective and co-ordinated

action. What's good for the economy is the large scale economic activity 
that war generates. But imagine what sort of things might happen if nations 
used that martial spirit to organize people around an activity that built 
things instead of dropping bombs on them. Imagine what we could do with that

martial spirit if it were applied to healing instead of killing. That would 
be good for the economy. I'm talking about the new and improved, death-free 
martial spirit. Now with 90% less evil! Because, of course, the economy is 
supposed to serve people and not the other way around.

How about if we say that hunger, disease and ignorance are the axis of evil.

If we're stuck with war metaphors, let's demonize those things and make war 
on them. If we're stuck with money as the supreme value, then let's at least

insist that it very much matters how profit is generated.

Ooops. gotta go. Don't wanna be late for work. gotta get to the bomb factory

by noon.