[MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters

Tue Oct 3 10:34:34 PDT 2006

Jos,

Since we're all the same as animals, are you a monkey? Can you see the
differences between humans and animals? Can you see differences between
humans? Do you hibernate in the winter? Before hibernating, do you catch
animals drawing pictures on the cave walls? Do they talk to you? You can
communicate, and since we're all the same, animals must be talking to you.
Or are we different from the animals?

Micah

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Laycock, Jos (OSPT)
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 2:55 AM
To: 'moq_discuss at moqtalk.org'
Subject: Re: [MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters

Micah
I don't regard there to be any uniquely "human qualities" to start off with,
so I can't cite any evidence of them in other animal species.

The same cell types use the same neurotransmitters, the firing velociites
are the same, most the brain architecture is identical.
You said you are an objectivist, so when the objects are the same why should
the mind be so different?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Micah
> Sent: 02 October 2006 18:43
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters
>
>
> Jos,
>
> Subconscious is an odd term, it is below our consciousness
> and yet since we
> have named it and have an understanding of it, it is therefore not
> subconscious but conscious. I mean, how can we know about
> something - we
> can't know about? There is only one consciousness or reality, shared
> objective reality.
>
> The only instinct I know of, that is shared by all living
> things, is the
> survival instinct.
>
> Humans have intelligence, and only humans, because it is a
> human mental
> concept. Applying intelligence, or any term for that matter,
> to non-humans
> is anthropomorphizing. Man is the measure of all things.
>
> Animals don't "work" that is what humans do. Animals are.
> Animals don't have
> "free will", humans do.  Animals don't "behave", humans do.
> Animals don't
> make "decisions", that is a human mental concept. You are
> anthropomorphizing.
>
> I am fascinated by those that think man is not the measure of
> all things,
> when we clearly are and that alone separates us.
>
> I am not religious and my position is rational, you're the
> one denying the
> obvious.
>
> I am not presuming (human mental concept) human qualities on
> animals, you
> are. I have no premise - you do. It is irrational to presume
> human qualities
> on animals without evidence.  Can you cite even one instance
> of animals
> displaying human qualities, independent of humans?
>
> Micah
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Laycock,
> Jos (OSPT)
> Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 11:02 AM
> To: 'moq_discuss at moqtalk.org'
> Subject: Re: [MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters
>
>
> Micah,
>
> a few other questions that I need to ask you before I decide
> how to begin my
> rebuttal;
>
> Fisrtly I dont recall ever talking about a range of
> realities, where did you
> dream that one up from?
> Talking about levels of consciousness then:
> Do you believe in a subconcsious as distinct from normal
> experience?, do you
> believe in humans having animal instincts as well as
> intelligence?, do you
> believe in cultural consciousness (I dont't but still need to check)?
>
> Further, to clarify, do you have it that animals work in an entirely
> automated way? Input in, causes behaviour out? No free will? no choice
> exercised?
> if not then:
> What term do you apply to animal deision making?
>
> I'm fascinated by people who are so desparate to set humans
> apart, you're
> still just stating it as a given, I've always seen this as a religeous
> thing, is it in your case? and if not, are you able to
> examine your own
> motives for holding this irrational belief?
>
> Jos
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> > [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Micah
> > Sent: 02 October 2006 17:40
> > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > Subject: Re: [MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters
> >
> >
> > Jos,
> >
> > The term "think" can be defined in any manner you want as
> > long a you realize
> > that humans are doing the defining, not animals. You're right
> > it is not
> > funny that you presume that animals "think", I don't presume
> > that animals
> > "think" - "think" is a human mental concept. There are no
> known animal
> > mental concepts. Man is the measure of all things. As you
> > must clearly see
> > by your last sentence, where you (human) "see" a range of
> > realities and
> > apply them. Any of your animals friends doing the same? As
> > for you range of
> > realities - you're a nut.
> >
> > Micah
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> > [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Laycock,
> > Jos (OSPT)
> > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 3:34 AM
> > To: 'moq_discuss at moqtalk.org'
> > Subject: Re: [MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters
> >
> >
> > Hello Micah
> >
> > Not funny
> > I'm well aware that cats smiling has nothing to their being happy.
> > The fact that there is a convenient word describing
> > misapplication of human
> > traits to suprficially simalar looking animal behaviours does
> > not exclude
> > the possibility that certain behaviours are analogous amongst
> > a range of
> > species.
> > It's only anthropomorphising if you start from the premise
> > that certain
> > characteristics are exclusively human. If the initial premis
> > is that there
> > are a range of possible characterists and a range of possible
> > levels of
> > consciousness, I see no problem applying them to anything
> > which expresses
> > them
> > What do you mean by the word "think"? specify please.
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> > > [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Micah
> > > Sent: 28 September 2006 22:22
> > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > Subject: Re: [MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters
> > >
> > >
> > > Jos,
> > >
> > > Animals think? Have you been talking to animals, Dr.
> > Dolittle? Animals
> > > cooperate? Do they have logos and team colors too?
> > >
> > > You are anthropomorphizing.
> > >
> > > Micah
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> > > [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Laycock,
> > > Jos (OSPT)
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 8:37 AM
> > > To: 'moq_discuss at moqtalk.org'
> > > Subject: Re: [MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters
> > >
> > >
> > > Further discussion it is then:
> > >
> > > On psychaitric illness, I recall that Pirsig is at some pains
> > > to describe it
> > > as a cultural/intellectual phenomenon, yes this may be
> > underpinned by
> > > certain inorgainc and biological patterns but as stated
> > > previously this is
> > > the same with all patterns that are written on top of lower
> > ones. The
> > > thought is still a thought even if it is an abberent one. A
> > "correct"
> > > thought also stems from a biological/chemical process.
> > >
> > > "People are
> > > > harder to define, being at times biological, at other times
> > > > social, and
> > > > occasionally intellectual."
> > > IMHO a person is all things all at once, our actions though
> > > can be placed
> > > within particular levels.
> > >
> > > The chemical burn examople can be changed as I see any
> > > reference to eating
> > > makes it a biological issue in your eyes, how about sunburn:
> > > I can choose to stay in UV light for nine hours, it causes
> > > inorganic damage
> > > to the cells in my skin, its a bad decision and one that runs
> > > against the
> > > life favouring morality that exists in the inorganic level.
> > > Humans aren't unique in making choices that override
> > > biological urges, what
> > > evidence is there for this assertion? Animals also choose to
> > > avoid self
> > > endangering activities, they also choose to act
> > > co-operatively. In a further
> > > blurring of the distinction, many humans are entirely
> > unable to resist
> > > biological urges and excercise no choice whatsoever, hence
> > the chronic
> > > obesity problems that sweep the world today, and all
> other addictive
> > > behaviours.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----Original Message-----
> > > > From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> > > > [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of
> > > pholden at davtv.com
> > > > Sent: 28 September 2006 14:49
> > > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Quoting "Laycock, Jos (OSPT)" <Jos.Laycock at OFFSOL.GSI.GOV.UK>:
> > > >
> > > > > Hello Platt
> > > > > These were intended to be examples of moral codes
> > > > applicable at all the
> > > > > different static levels, you've chosen to assign them to
> > > > different levels
> > > > > which misses the point, my fault for being vague:
> > > > >
> > > > > Any event at any level of course permeates all those
> > > > beneath, entities can
> > > > > though be defined by the highest level at whih they are
> > > > manifest. Do you
> > > > > agree?
> > > >
> > > > To some extent. Entities such as atoms and antelopes can be
> > > > easily pegged as
> > > > belonging to the inorganic and biological levels
> > > > respectively. People are
> > > > harder to define, being at times biological, at other times
> > > > social, and
> > > > occasionally intellectual.
> > > >
> > > > > Drinking bleach can be seen as a metophor for making a bad
> > > > decision that
> > > > > breaks a moral code of the inorganic values system. Please
> > > > feel free to pick
> > > > > a different one that we can agree on.
> > > > > Point is, that breaking it is a free choice that is
> > > > available, and you will
> > > > > be punished for it by the destructive oxidation of a range
> > > > of the mollecules
> > > > > that make up your inorganic pattern.
> > > >
> > > > I consider drinking, eating, sleeping, fighting, f---ing and
> > > > the like to be
> > > > biological level behaviors. Humans are unique in having some
> > > > control over
> > > > these values.
> > > >
> > > > > Sleeping with your sister breaks a biological moral code
> > > > and you will be
> > > > > punished by your progeny having limited diversity and
> > > > becoming prone to
> > > > > genetic disease.
> > > >
> > > > I also consider inbreeding biological level behavior.
> > > >
> > > > > Passing a red light breaks a cultural moral and the
> > > > punishment is likely to
> > > > > be a fine.
> > > >
> > > > Yes. A social value.
> > > >
> > > > > Beoming irrational and denying the facts or logic that you
> > > > are not napoleon
> > > > > breaks an intellectual moral code and you will be punished
> > > > for it with
> > > > > "correction" likely applied by the intellect of a
> psychiatrist.
> > > >
> > > > I think it's been fairly well established that most mental
> > > > illnesses have as
> > > > their root cause a chemical imbalance in the brain. At least
> > > > a great many
> > > > of such illnesses are relieved by drugs. Talking things out
> > > > with a psychiatrist
> > > > may prove helpful, but as you know Pirsig is no great fan of
> > > > psychiatric "correction."
> > > >
> > > > I hope this is responsive to your points. I get the feeling
> > > > that you and I
> > > > may disagree on our understanding of Pirsig's levels. Perhaps
> > > > further discussion
> > > > will be helpful.
> > > >
> > > > Platt
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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