[MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters

[Micah]

Arlo,

>From a monkey's point of view, if you kill all monkeys reality would cease
>to exist. From a monkey's point of view, "he" is the measure of all things.
>Perhaps his measurement isn't a Great and Glorious as Wonderful Man's, but
>it is a measurement nonetheless.

Monkeys don't have a point of view, you are assuming.

>So, if all of reality depends on man's existence, how did the dinosaurs
>come to be? Are there monkeys somewhere that are not under the observation
>of humans? Do they not exist? Suppose I WAS the last human, here in North
>America. Is that enough to allow monkeys to continue living in Africa?

Well, I'd say evolution accounts for life on earth past and present, as for
how it all started - I don't know. Are you implying that the past isn't part
of man's reality? How can we know of the existence of something we don't
know of? If man did not exist, how can reality be shown to exist?

>No. People have died and YOUR reality still exists. All that proves is that
>TO YOU "you are the measure of all things".

I didn't say that, pay attention. Reality cannot be shown to exist without
humans, and humans (two or more) have shared objective reality. Which is to
say; we do not control reality, but it does not exist without us.

You have misinterpreted Pirsig. Quality is where subject and object meet.


Micah





-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Arlo Bensinger
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 1:21 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters


[Micah]
Humans exist independently of Dodo birds, or any extinct plant or animal,
for that matter. We could kill all monkeys, and humans would still exist.
We can remove anything, except humans, from reality, and reality still
exists. But reality cannot be shown to exist without humans. Man is the
measure of all things.

[Arlo]
You are wrong. You have confused your perspective with objective reality.
 From a monkey's point of view, if you kill all monkeys reality would cease
to exist. From a monkey's point of view, "he" is the measure of all things.
Perhaps his measurement isn't a Great and Glorious as Wonderful Man's, but
it is a measurement nonetheless.

[Micah]
Monkeys don't have points of view, humans do.

[Arlo]
So, if all of reality depends on man's existence, how did the dinosaurs
come to be? Are there monkeys somewhere that are not under the observation
of humans? Do they not exist? Suppose I WAS the last human, here in North
America. Is that enough to allow monkeys to continue living in Africa?

[Micah]
People have died, and reality still exists. But when the last human dies,
reality cannot be shown to exist.

[Arlo]
No. People have died and YOUR reality still exists. All that proves is that
TO YOU "you are the measure of all things".

[Micah]
Reality, in fact, is human. This is elemental and is Pirsig's philosophical
"jumping off point".

[Arlo]
Pirsig's "jumping off point" was that Quality precedes subjects and
objects. Whatever anthropomorphizing you add is your own agenda.


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