[MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters

Mon Oct 16 21:22:11 PDT 2006

[Micah]
I know that a red corvette can be shown to exist, and that we can also
measure to the precise color (red) of the spectrum it is reflecting. That is
not Solipsism. 

[Case]
How to you know this? On what basis can your Corvette be show to exist?
Clever demons alter the spectrum three times before breakfast. What if you
are color blind? 

You think the problem of Solipsism goes away because you say Boo? The world
exists because you say it does? That powerful mojo!

[Micah]
I also know that the corvette cannot be shown to exist if no humans exist.
Reality is objective in the presence of two or more humans.
Perspective requires two or more humans.

[Case]
So I should believe whatever you say because you "know" it? But wait, now it
takes two or more humans. So like the party of the first part having shared
reality with the party of the second part are now possessors of their own
universe divided by two?
It's a law? It's required? Are there more requirements? Are there fines?

MenKind is the measure of all things?
Persons of similar or mixed genderhood is the measure of all things?
Sentient beings of similar genetic persuasion are the measure of all things?

[Micah]
To assume reality is an illusion requires the use of your senses, to negate
the use of you senses. A contradiction. Reality is objective in the presence
of two or more humans. A is A. But reality cannot be shown to exist without
humans.

[Case]
I assume I have senses because this is impossible to doubt. As to what they
reveal it is impossible to be certain. If all you are looking for is a
feeling of certainty you can rationalize, reality is not required and logic
is just a chew toy.

We have no direct access to this reality of which you speak. Math logic and
equations are descriptions of reality. We judge them based on mutual
consensus. Reality does no appear wherever two or more are gathered in its
name. But where two or more are so gathered, consensus could require that A
is B or that Jeanie Ate Her Read Corvette.

[Micah]
Can you agree with that?

[Case]
There is hope but it is fading fast.

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Case
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 6:47 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters

Solipsism is the belief that all of reality exists only inside your own
skin. It is the Cogito Ergo Sum. It is the only certainty we have, flimsy
though it may be. It does not imply that you can control reality or at least
it doesn't inside my head. Belief in anything outside of your self requires
use of the tools you come equipped with: your senses, your common sense.

If as you say, you accept the existence of others similar to yourself, then
you are doing so based on faith. You do not have direct experience of them
or of anything else. You can believe whatever you want inside your own head
but eventually most of us come to believe, that the value of the contents of
our own heads is measured against the illusion we see around us. If there is
no correspondence between what our senses tell us and what we think about it
our genes drift toward the shallow end of the pool.

Case

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Micah
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 9:07 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters

Case,

Please review the definition of Solipsism. I am not espousing Solipsism, I
do not say we control reality.

But you are right this is about faith. 2 + 2 = 4, I know this is logical,
but is it also an article of faith? Could 2 + 2 = 5 with enough faith? Or is
logic not a faith?

Micah

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Case
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 4:42 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Flying Spagetti Monsters

[Micah]
You are confused, we now exist independent of the Dodo bird (extinct), and
we would still exist if we killed all monkeys (which I do not advocate), but
nothing can be shown to exist independent of humans and I hate to keep
harping on this - but this a fact. I know of only one reality - please
describe the "other" reality.

[Case]
An important point you are missing is that there is no WE in what you are
describing. Everything you are saying about Dodo birds and monkeys applies
to all of the humans you know as well. You have no basis for attributing
consciousness or awareness to them either. You are espousing naked
solipsism. The fact that there is no logical argument around this problem is
not surprising since none has yet to be offered up. At present the only
escape from solipsism is faith. You claim to have no faith and yet you
appeal to logic. What is that if not an act of faith in logic? In any event
logic will not solve the problem.

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