[MD] The Fringe Factor

[gav]

I repeat - nothing can be shown to exist independent
> of humans. "Shown",
> "evidence", "proof" imply humans

does this mean nothing existed before humans?






if so
--- Micah <micah at roarkplumbing.com> wrote:

> Platt,
> 
> If you die tonight, could you prove that your cat
> exists?
> 
> If your cat gets burned and yowls, what kind of pain
> is he feeling? Searing,
> stabbing, tingling, aching? Since it is clear to you
> the pain he is feeling,
> please describe the pain in detail. And while you're
> at it, I'm thinking of
> a number between 1 and 100 - which number is it?
> Since you can read cats
> minds, humans minds should be easy. Here's a hint -
> it's a high number.
> 
> Yes, I am an egoist. An egotist would assume to know
> the thoughts of other
> animals, after assuming that they had thoughts. I
> don't.
> 
> I don't believe in god, however I do know that the
> past is part of man's
> reality.
> 
> This is not either/or. Reality does not exist
> without us, and we do not
> control reality.
> 
> I repeat - nothing can be shown to exist independent
> of humans. "Shown",
> "evidence", "proof" imply humans.
> 
> To believe that something exists without evidence,
> or proof is called faith.
> I don't have a faith, but apparently you do.
> 
> 
> Micah
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of
> pholden at davtv.com
> Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 5:29 PM
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] The Fringe Factor
> 
> 
> Quoting Micah <micah at roarkplumbing.com>:
> 
> > Platt,
> >
> > We know your cat has freedom. Freedom is a human
> mental concept; not only
> > does your cat not know it has freedom - it simply
> doesn't know. Knowing is
> > another human mental concept.
> >
> > Here's an analogy -
> >
> > If I have a fire and in the fire is a rock and the
> fire has been burning
> for
> > an hour - is the rock hot?
> >
> > No - the rock is not hot, it is not anything but a
> rock. You are hot when
> > you touch the rock and you may say the rock is
> hot, but the rock doesn't
> > know what hot is. It is a rock. The rock's
> molecules have moved apart and
> > are moving, and a thermostat may read a high
> temperature, but the rock is
> > not hot. Hot is a mental concept we have and have
> placed on the rock. That
> > is an example of anthropomorphizing. Saying
> animals think is the same. We
> > think, and anthropomorphize the universe.
> >
> > Think is an extremely complex concept. If animals
> think, that would
> include,
> > jealousy, whimsy, wistfulness, melancholy,
> outrage, empathy,
> deliriousness,
> > longing, to name but a few. How can animals that
> "think" remain static?
> >
> > You may say, my cat thinks but in a limited range.
> You have decided your
> cat
> > "thinks" and even his range of thought, but your
> not anthropomorphizing?
> >
> > Can you begin to see that man is the measure of
> all things?
> >
> > Micah
> 
> My cat doesn't think by manipulating symbols and
> forming concepts like
> humans do.
> But, it's clear it is aware and that it experiences.
> It will avoid a
> hot rock and will yowl in pain if burned just as you
> and I will. To believe
> my cat exists because I observe him (idealism) is
> the height of human
> egocentricity. If I die tonight, my cat will still
> demand to be fed in the
> morning.The world was here long before you and I
> arrived on the scene
> and will continue long after we are gone.  The
> evidence is conclusive that
> existence exists on its own, not by our permission,
> unless you believe that
> God
> planted skeletons and other fossils just to fool
> everybody, or that the dead
> are
> still observing us from on high. Man is the measure
> of a lot, but not
> everything.
> But, I could be wrong.
> 
> Best,
> Platt
> 
> 
> 
> 
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