[MD] psst, Squonk, Over here

[Case]

I had to change the topic. Very time I check my mail on see Ham responding
in a thread I am involved in, it's like an ice pick to the forehead.

[Mark 26b-10-06

The MoQ moves beyond Tao metaphysics. RQ and CQ are not part of the  MoQ.

[Case]
As I said I think the MoQ borrows Taoist metaphysics. RQ and CQ really don't
have anything to do with either.
 
[Mark 26b-10-06] 
Distinctions are sq. Yin and Yang are sq.

[Case]
I could actually get on board with that as long as DQ and SQ are sq too.

[Mark 26b-10-06] 
This is because i tend to view DQ and Quality as the same thing.

[Case]
This I don't get at all. This just seems to be throwing Quality out of the
MoQ. I really don't see how this works in fact if all you have in the MoQ is
DQ and SQ, it seems very dualistic.

[Mark 26b-10-06] 
I think you are conflating evolution with Human destruction?
If Humanity damages the Biosphere and eradicates Humanity in the process
life will simply replace Humanity with something else.

[Case]
Not really 3000 species per year could be shuffling into the great void
because they have been force to listen to someone read Ham's posts to them.
But how is there purpose or betterness in evolution if the biosphere is
eradicated by a big falling fall and all that is left is a smoldering pile
of rocks. We as purposeful creatures have lots of purposes and we strive
from betterness all the time but that's just us it is not a property of
nature or a feature of evolution 

[Mark 26b-10-06]
I should have been more careful and read up this section.
You are correct Case.
Remember that society is a collection of imitated behaviours, rituals and 
celebrities. The Nazi gas chambers could not distinguish  between biological

entities and imitated behaviour, rituals and celebrities.  B52's can't
either.
When the intellectual pattern known as democracy changes rule by celebrity  
monarch or dictator society changes under intellectual  dictate.

[Case]
I prefer to think of society as a collective memory. Through it we are able
to learn things we would have to figure out the hard way on our own. I see
individual and collective memory as very important. The expansion of this
memory through writing then cheap paper and printing press and now digital
storage is just about the most fantastic thing I can think of. Right now as
I am writing this I am downloading all kinds of interesting things. I will
soon have at my disposal a terabyte of ebooks, audiobooks, videos and
software that cover the collected knowledge of generations of our ancestors.
I prefer the audiobooks because I can't read as fast as Dan and I can absorb
lots of stuff by listening while I do other things. But that is a tangent
you are right the real problem is values and how do we assess what is good
and what is bad. Clearly that tends to be an individual evaluation and
reasonable people can disagree.

[Mark 26b-10-06]
I don't know what mythic appeal you are referring to. I shall read this
section of Lila again.
Shamans are individuals operating outside static structures.
As a Dynamic celebrity organising principle the brujo makes sense to  me.
This accords with the static structure (rituals) and Dynamic function
(celebrity) found at each level.

[Case]
I spent quite a bit of effort on this one. While Pirsig's story may contain
truth as you say. That truth does not lie in the facts of the matter. That
to me is the Power of Myth. I noticed that there was no mention of the
brujos name. I have visited Zuni and was interested in Zuni history but
could find nothing on this story in the work of Frank Cushing who lived with
and studied the Zuni in the late 1800's. Benedict's Patterns of Culture was
not much help either. Pirsig basically just quotes her. She got the story
from Ruth Bunzell who did field work with native Americans in the early
1900's. The reference Benedict cites is so out of date it is not really
available anywhere. I finally found that is was available only on microfilm
in the library of Harvard university and conned a friend of mine into
getting me copies in pdf format. I can send you a copy if you like but I
have had it posted somewhere on the iSpots website for about a year.

[Mark 26b-10-06]
I think you're conflating unknown with can't  know.

[Case]
If mystically just means "can't know" I will have to reassess my distrust of
it. There is an aweful lot of stuff that can't be known.

[Mark 26b-10-06]
DQ makes no sense either. If it did we would have sense of the unknowable.
As a metaphysical postulation i'm entitled to use chaos as i see fit.
This isn't science case. This is philosophy.

[Case]
Philosophy is what we do while we are waiting for some to figure out what is
really going on. History is the expansion of science and the contraction of
the theology and philosophy.
 
[Mark 26b-10-06]
What you say may be so, but you are not helping me by  the manner of
discourse you have chosen to adopt.
I would love it if you spelled your ideas out in a clear and concise  form.

[Case]
I would dearly love to start that this evening but my user's wife needs me
in Norrath. I have to go sing songs to these big two legged dog looking
things to piss them off and hustle them to their doom.


Sorry maybe later...

Case