[MD] psst, Squonk, Over here

[Squonkonguitar at aol.com]

I had to change the topic. Very time I check my mail on see Ham  responding
in a thread I am involved in, it's like an ice pick to the  forehead.

[Mark 26b-10-06

The MoQ moves beyond Tao metaphysics. RQ  and CQ are not part of the  MoQ.

[Case]
As I said I think the MoQ  borrows Taoist metaphysics. RQ and CQ really don't
have anything to do with  either.

[Mark 26b-10-06] 
Distinctions are sq. Yin and Yang are  sq.

[Case]
I could actually get on board with that as long as DQ and  SQ are sq too.

[Mark 26b-10-06] 
This is because i tend to view DQ and  Quality as the same thing.

[Case]
This I don't get at all. This just  seems to be throwing Quality out of the
MoQ. I really don't see how this  works in fact if all you have in the MoQ is
DQ and SQ, it seems very  dualistic.
 
Mark 27-10-06: Hello Case.
You may be right?
Metaphysically DQ does not look a dualistic counterpart to sq to me.
Epistemically it looks allot more dualistic - Knowable/Unknowable.
Ethically it does not look dualistic either.

[Mark 26b-10-06] 
I  think you are conflating evolution with Human destruction?
If Humanity  damages the Biosphere and eradicates Humanity in the process
life will simply  replace Humanity with something else.

[Case]
Not really 3000 species  per year could be shuffling into the great void
because they have been force  to listen to someone read Ham's posts to them.
But how is there purpose or  betterness in evolution if the biosphere is
eradicated by a big falling fall  and all that is left is a smoldering pile
of rocks. We as purposeful  creatures have lots of purposes and we strive
from betterness all the time  but that's just us it is not a property of
nature or a feature of  evolution
 
Mark 27-10-06: There is little doubt Ham's behaviour is redolent  of right 
wing bigotry and barely suppressed homoerotic tendencies.
If Humanity is culled back to pre-dark age due to catastrophic climate  
change, as Gaia theorist James Lovelock fears, there may be a renaisance at some  
future point. If things go all out tits up, Humanity's replacement may appear 
in  the twinkle of geological time?


[Mark 26b-10-06]
I should have been more careful and read up  this section.
You are correct Case.
Remember that society is a collection  of imitated behaviours, rituals and 
celebrities. The Nazi gas chambers could  not distinguish  between biological

entities and imitated behaviour,  rituals and celebrities.  B52's can't
either.
When the intellectual  pattern known as democracy changes rule by celebrity  
monarch or  dictator society changes under intellectual  dictate.

[Case]
I  prefer to think of society as a collective memory. Through it we are able
to  learn things we would have to figure out the hard way on our own.
 
Mark 27-10-06: Rituals act as a variety of memory. It's confusing to call  it 
memory so we could call it something else?
Social patterns of values sounds fine to me.
 
Case:
I see
individual and collective memory as very important. The expansion  of this
memory through writing then cheap paper and printing press and now  digital
storage is just about the most fantastic thing I can think of.
 
Mark 27-10-06: You've just begun to conflate ritual and symbolic  
manipulation.
 
Case:
Right now as
I am writing this I am downloading all kinds of interesting  things. I will
soon have at my disposal a terabyte of ebooks, audiobooks,  videos and
software that cover the collected knowledge of generations of our  ancestors.
I prefer the audiobooks because I can't read as fast as Dan and I  can absorb
lots of stuff by listening while I do other things. But that is a  tangent
you are right the real problem is values and how do we assess what is  good
and what is bad. Clearly that tends to be an individual evaluation  and
reasonable people can disagree.

[Mark 26b-10-06]
I don't know  what mythic appeal you are referring to. I shall read this
section of Lila  again.
Shamans are individuals operating outside static structures.
As a  Dynamic celebrity organising principle the brujo makes sense to   me.
This accords with the static structure (rituals) and Dynamic  function
(celebrity) found at each level.

[Case]
I spent quite a  bit of effort on this one. While Pirsig's story may contain
truth as you say.  That truth does not lie in the facts of the matter. That
to me is the Power  of Myth. I noticed that there was no mention of the
brujos name. I have  visited Zuni and was interested in Zuni history but
could find nothing on  this story in the work of Frank Cushing who lived with
and studied the Zuni  in the late 1800's. Benedict's Patterns of Culture was
not much help either.  Pirsig basically just quotes her. She got the story
from Ruth Bunzell who did  field work with native Americans in the early
1900's. The reference Benedict  cites is so out of date it is not really
available anywhere. I finally found  that is was available only on microfilm
in the library of Harvard university  and conned a friend of mine into
getting me copies in pdf format. I can send  you a copy if you like but I
have had it posted somewhere on the iSpots  website for about a year.
 
Mark 27-10-06: The story gave Pirsig his DQ/sq division. Sometimes insights  
like come from mundane connections.
I was watching tennis on the BBC when McEnroe made a mundane comment about  
the sweet spot and it's been a pain in the arse ever since.

[Mark  26b-10-06]
I think you're conflating unknown with can't   know.

[Case]
If mystically just means "can't know" I will have to  reassess my distrust of
it. There is an aweful lot of stuff that can't be  known.
 
Mark 27-10-06: Unknown, but experienced i might add.
The experience cannot be captured in static patterns.
But the experience is readily available and there's nothing elitist about  it.

[Mark 26b-10-06]
DQ makes no sense either. If it did we would have  sense of the unknowable.
As a metaphysical postulation i'm entitled to use  chaos as i see fit.
This isn't science case. This is  philosophy.

[Case]
Philosophy is what we do while we are waiting for  some to figure out what is
really going on. History is the expansion of  science and the contraction of
the theology and philosophy.
 
Mark 27-10-06: I was talking about this with a friend the other day and we  
were having a good laugh at the many scientists who reach a point where they  
seem to realise science just doesn't cut it. The more beautiful science becomes 
 the more clear it becomes how unscientific beauty is. After that it's either 
 philosophy or raving organised religion for you.

[Mark 26b-10-06]
What  you say may be so, but you are not helping me by  the manner  of
discourse you have chosen to adopt.
I would love it if you spelled your  ideas out in a clear and concise  form.

[Case]
I would dearly  love to start that this evening but my user's wife needs me
in Norrath. I  have to go sing songs to these big two legged dog looking
things to piss them  off and hustle them to their doom.


Sorry maybe  later...

Case
 
Mark 27-10-06: You've lost me but at least you're entertaining  yourself.
Love,
Mark