[MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

[Ron Kulp]

 SA, I hope you do not mind if I jump in on this, you said-

"That would generate frustration for those that want it all now.  Fear
and anger would be ways to just reach out and grab it all now, but by
doing so those fueled by frustration and promoting fear and anger to get
what they want destroy the very 'things' they try to make contact with,
whatever that might be.  Seemingly they are seeking satisfaction, but
inertial frustration, not rid of, does not provide satisfaction.  Fear
and anger are not only loud, but are disruptive.  Those that are
resiliently strong with clarity might see through disruptions.  By even
Yoda said once, the dark side is strong, and deception had already
clouded the Force.  The Republic was in danger.  So, Jedi's had to go
out and find out first hand what was going on behind the dark cloud of
deception.  Yoda knew the dark side put up a veil of deception, but he
couldn't see what events were occurring beyond this dark veil.  The
power of the dark side was strong.  Some first-hand investigation, hands
in the dirt one might say, would only bring to light what deception was
hiding.  Sorry for the Star Wars tangent, but does my overall point make
sense?"

-(Ron)
Boy, does this strike a chord, This thread I need to discuss, very
badly, for I have experienced it first hand, my life is centerd on
This subject right now. The origins for my obsession with the MOQ. I
have  a heighten "hypervigiliance" Response to bullying...I have spent
my adult life overcoming it and developed advanced methods of dealing
with it, I am well versed in combat methods both mental and physical, I
studied martial Arts in depth. employing a lot of your discussion  with
what I just expierienced, I have a fear and anger towards those people
who exhibit those "qualities" you illustrated..I know better than this
but, I become tired of overlooking their
Folly. I find myself falling into the trap...I know the dark side quite
well yet I adhere to the light...I try to become the valley
....I feel those people you illustrated so well have never expierienced
true darkness..for how can you truly appreciate life, light and joy If
you have not felt true horror,pain and darkness....my problem is my
wanting to "enlighten" these poor souls but as you said
I'd only be destroying my true aim...I endeavor to set the example but I
am increasingly frustrated with this society.., I am not endeared to our
western culture, I see the whites as being afflicted with an illness of
imagining themselves to be Separate from everthing therefore They feel
they can treat this dream in which our souls burn in  like a whore. Case
states: "It is an oversimplification of course but what motivates us all
is fear of loss and hope of gain. The trick for the behavioral therapist
is to figure out where the subject's hopes lie."  great point..one I
need to evaluate myself..right now my fear is those like us will be
wiped from the face of the earth  my hope is that we will not. 




----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Heather Perella
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 11:53 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] So cometh MOQ, what next?

Case,

    Some very interesting points here.  I have some comments and
questions that with your help I hope to generate some clarity.

     [Case quotes] 
> Or as Lao Tzu says:
> "When a disciplinarian does something and no one responds He rolls up 
> his sleeves in an attempt to
enforce
> order.
> Therefore when Tao is lost, there is goodness.
> When goodness is lost, there is kindness.
> When kindness is lost, there is justice.
> When justice is lost, there is ritual.
> Now ritual is the husk of faith and loyalty, the beginning of 
> confusion.
> Knowledge of the future is only a flowery trapping of the Tao. It is 
> the beginning of folly."

      Are you reading this as a peeling of a banana? 
I am.  Therefore, when Tao is lost (peeled back and discarded), then we
will find goodness, but when goodness is lost (peeled back and
discarded), then there is kindness, etc...  All the way to when justice
is peeled away and discarded we then find faith and loyalty.  Lao Tzu
then states that that is the beginning of confusion.  By Knowledge of
the future trapping Tao, beginning of folly, I understand this as
conceptualizing Tao to be a dead end or beginning of folly.  Thus, for
us to know Tao in all of its'
transformative, changing ways, thinking we know how the wind will blow
in the coming moments is probable, but not actually knowable until the
wind does blow. 
Do you think that's correct?

     [Case continues]
> This suggests to me that if a society has to pass laws or use force to

> compel compliance then the battle for morality is already lost.

     This is how I view the girls I work with.  They come to placement
and we have to change their behavior.  We use simple reward-consequence
conditioning, aside from some other methods (example: 
Time Out which uses this conditioning, but also provides a moment of
reflection).  These residents are already in placement.  Society has
institutionalized programs to change negative behaviors.  Society
therefore knows and understands a need exists for careers and placement
institutions to be set-up ahead of time, for the girls will be coming.
Trouble exists in society.  The immoral behavior of spitting, hitting,
holding hostage via demands or else, thus, verbally threatening physical
hostile behaviors of some residents, and others fearing something and
wanting to run away from it (thus run from home or school [truancy].
These seeds have sprouted, society knows it, and is trying to plug up
the holes, and concrete institutions arise.  The morality of society
already lost puts me into battle position.  I have to at times face
these residents with no pity, and if they see terror as I come, then
this is only due to their already existing immoral behavior.  We are
trying to change something the residents have acquired to be rewarding,
useful, and 'the right way' to get out of life what they deem necessary.
This negative behavior has been reinforced, and we are trying to change
the direction of the tide.  The upswelling of something goes astray, and
society is not facing down and ridding the origin of these upswellings.
We're putting up dams and building bigger Titanics to overcome these
momentous, inertia bound, massive waves. 


     [Case]
> Morality is not about what we can do or what we have a right to do. It

> is about what we should do.

     When somebody comes at you demanding this or that, threatening to
flip-out if they don't get what they want, this is an attempt to hold
people hostage. 
So when these events happen, of course, we are going to come back at
them with what should be done, which is an attempt to deter such people
from behaving in these negative manners.  We make an effort to change
their behavior.  When faced first-hand with such misbehavior, we try to
change them or else the monster gets bigger in demeanor.  I think they
should not behave this way, and try to change their negative behavior;
or else time at work becomes worse and worse emotionally.  It is an
effort to rid the fear that some residents spread in order to get their
ways. 
Thus, this fear has become a useful tool and has compelled these
residents to use it.
     Why do they believe this is the only way to get what they want, the
use of fear and the overcoming power of anger?  What resistances (people
or
otherwise) hardened (maybe that's the word) so much so that the
seemingly stronger forces of fear and anger must be generated to get
what they want/need?  Fear and anger have discarded calm ways, due to
the seemingly instantaneous more powerful forces that fear and anger
are, wouldn't that be so?  This actually could fit into the instant
gratification this culture encourages.  Marketing and easy access makes
so much available to U.S. citizens.  We can have it all now, as long as
we have the motivation, drive, and yearning to be successful.  Yet, what
of those that miss out on this 'all of this can be yours' dream of the
U.S. 
With time, and as Einstein pointed out, space not on their side, then
fear and anger would powers to get things now more often and quicker
than using kindness, goodness, and oh, the Tao.  
     To rely upon the mysteries of the Tao is make things complete, some
people don't have that much patience, especially when the Tao is
understood.  For the Tao explains that a mysterious notion will always
be.  Who wants to wait around that long to have all the answers?  That
would generate frustration for those that want it all now.  Fear and
anger would be ways to just reach out and grab it all now, but by doing
so those fueled by frustration and promoting fear and anger to get what
they want destroy the very 'things' they try to make contact with,
whatever that might be.  Seemingly they are seeking satisfaction, but
inertial frustration, not rid of, does not provide satisfaction.  Fear
and anger are not only loud, but are disruptive.  Those that are
resiliently strong with clarity might see through disruptions.  By even
Yoda said once, the dark side is strong, and deception had already
clouded the Force.  The Republic was in danger.  So, Jedi's had to go
out and find out first hand what was going on behind the dark cloud of
deception.  Yoda knew the dark side put up a veil of deception, but he
couldn't see what events were occurring beyond this dark veil.  The
power of the dark side was strong.  Some first-hand investigation, hands
in the dirt one might say, would only bring to light what deception was
hiding.  Sorry for the Star Wars tangent, but does my overall point make
sense?

Thanks,
SA


 
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