[MD] Individual v Collective

[David M]

DMB

If your interested Bernard Williams explores how different or not
the Greeks are to us in his 'shame & necessity'. You'll love it.

No need to thank me.
David M


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "david buchanan" <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com>
To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 3:12 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] Individual v Collective


> Mike and all:
> Nice. I think you're right and it was well said too. It seems to me that
> individuality goes hand in hand with rationality, democracy and human 
> rights
> and the other positive contributions of Modernity.
>
> But I think we have to be careful about exactly what individuality is. 
> (Not
> that you said otherwise.) I was re-reading the section of Lila about
> celebrity as a central organizing principle of the social level recently 
> and
> I wonder if fame could be confused with individuality in some way. I also
> wonder if the long tradition of celebrating certain famous individuals,
> heros and kings and such, really leave much room for a whole different 
> sense
> of self. I mean, I wonder is the emergence of individuality entails a
> substantial shift in consciousness or if it is more like a shift the the
> culture's values in general, one that allowed naturally latent tendencies 
> to
> emerge.
>
> It just seems so easy to relate to the personal emotions depicted in 
> ancient
> literature. Its hard to imagine that pre-Modern people were very different
> from us, you know?
>
> thanks,
> dmb
>
>
> Michael Hamilton said:
>>While I agree with (and like) Arlo's point about collective emergence,
>>I still want to stick to my (now somewhat rusted) guns about the
>>emergence of what we're calling 'intellect' being closely related the
>>emergence of _a sense of_ individuality and the sense of the human
>>self as an atomised unit. What I'm suggesting is that, rather than the
>>4th level being about individuals, it has a great deal to do with
>>individuals being aware of themselves _as individuals_, with their own
>>unique subjective preferences, beliefs and foibles. Self-awareness.
>>
>>While it's good to be reminded that we are all tied together by our
>>participation in the cultural mythos, we shouldn't dismiss the sense
>>of individuality as an illusion, or (to use a phrase from Paul's blog)
>>as an entirely maladaptive belief. Sure, it can have maladaptive
>>consequences when we forget about the mythos and the vital
>>interdependence of all life of Earth. But self-awareness,
>>self-consciousness, the sense of individuality, respresents a big
>>evolutionary leap from the 'tribal consciousness' that manifests
>>itself both in the emergent behavior of ant colonies and in Hitler's
>>brutal subordination of the individual to the interests of the
>>Volksgemeinschaft (people's community).
>>
>>I still think it's no coincidence that this self-awareness emerged at
>>around the same time as science really took off. I remember hearing
>>somewhere that Descartes' over-arching project was to create a 'solid
>>philosophical foundation for the sciences'. Whether he succeeded or
>>not, I reckon he was the main philosopher in bestowing subjective
>>awareness upon members of the Western mythos - and one of the key
>>culprits in entrenching SOM so far into the mythos that it has become
>>a maladaptive belief.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Mike
>
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