[MD] MOQ & Evolution

[David M]

Hi Ian

Your nerves here are shared by many and I would
agree that what happens with electrons or molecules
or cells or digestive organs is different from brains but all
of these active patterns have to take one path
rather than another (which is what collapses the
wave function or spread of possibilities) and
this is agency of some form, because this chosing
is what we mean by agency versus mechanism (no choice
and really no systems are entirely mechanical. You
may call it chance at the lowest level as their is no
possibility that has the quality to be preferred over the
other possibilities.

regards
David M


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ian glendinning" <psybertron at gmail.com>
To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] MOQ & Evolution


> Hi David,
>
> Clearly the basic Darwinian "selection" mechanism says nothing about
> the existence of variety, just what happens to it. (Clearly the "too
> much" "too long" counter-challenges are the subect of complicated
> arguments, we should be careful to simply sloganise.)
>
> That said, I agree with your paragraph except for some possible
> interpretations of "agency, "motivation" and "experience". I'd a gree
> the mechanism is DQ and that it's the interactions that expose the
> quality. (Just nervous about any conscious-will implication behind
> your choice of words.)
>
> We agree MoQ adds to a whole basket of post Darwinian models of evolution.
> Ian
>
> On 9/16/06, David M <davidint at blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> Hi Ian
>>
>> I was not saying that evolution has a problem with too much
>> variety rather that it offers a poor explanation if any of where
>> the variety comes from. I think we need to see the explanation as
>> DQ, and DQ as meaning access to the realm of the possible
>> that lies beyond SQ and the actual. And also that selection has
>> to be linked to an activity/agency that is motivated by 
>> experience/quality.
>> Darwin is not wrong, just incomplete, and Pirsig offers to fill some
>> of the gap I believe. You question my other challenges, OK but the
>> opposite view is equally hard to support and are usually swallowed as
>> assumptions.
>>
>> David M
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "ian glendinning" <psybertron at gmail.com>
>> To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
>> Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 11:16 PM
>> Subject: Re: [MD] MOQ & Evolution
>>
>>
>> > Hmm, David, you have a point .... but I'd like to cast doubt on three
>> > others first.
>> >
>> > You presume a problem with evolution ?
>> >
>> > Clearly MoQ helps explain many (all) aspects of reality, evolution
>> > inlcuded, and includes evolution as part of its own explanation. So
>> > where's the problem ?
>> >
>> > (1) "Too much" variety to select from ? Very subjective statement,
>> > where do you get that from, too much relative to what ? The variety
>> > isn't all sitting around waiting to be selected from anyway, it comes
>> > and goes over long periods of time.
>> >
>> > (2) Selection via elimination is "too slow". Same kind of subjective
>> > statement; too slow relative to what ? The "improbability" argument
>> > has surely been done to death, where do you get your too improbable
>> > case from ?
>> >
>> > Both the above are hugely complex over long timescales, so any simple
>> > statement is going to be problematic .... but anyway.
>> >
>> > (3) Selection of the "fittest" has little to with fitness at breeding
>> > (or even physical fitness in competition) ... its about "quality of
>> > fit with the environment" .... those that succeed by breeding fast are
>> > simply exploiting alternatives to their limitations elsewhere. Again,
>> > many complex aspects of fit, over many generations and time-scales.
>> >
>> > (4) Built-in selection options .... now you may have a point.
>> >
>> > Dennett style "engineering view" of evolution (and our friend Terry
>> > Bristol of ISEPP, over at Friends of Wisdom). There certainly are such
>> > things, natural things, quality things, emergent things, coherent
>> > things .... planes of weakness, lines of least resistance, patterns of
>> > optimum efficiencies, music of the spheres, requisite varieties ...
>> > none of which need higher causal agency than quality. (Though of
>> > course once conscious will has arisen, all bets are off, as the agents
>> > influence their environments in directed ... and perverse ... ways,
>> > but the process doesn't seem to "require" intelligent agents, just the
>> > quality of dynamic interactions.)
>> >
>> > Many natural processes influence the range and nature of options that
>> > arise and await their fate in "de-selection". Darwin hadn't heard of
>> > even 1% of them, but that doesn't mean he was 99% wrong.
>> >
>> > Regards
>> > Ian
>> >
>> > On 9/8/06, David M <davidint at blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> >> Hi MOQ folk
>> >>
>> >> I wonder, is the main problem with evolutionary theory
>> >> is that whilst natural selection is plausible it fails to explain
>> >> why there is so much damn good variety to select from?
>> >>
>> >> Does not DQ and the free selection of quality not help us out here?
>> >>
>> >> And also help with time frames, because selection via eliminating of 
>> >> the
>> >> less fit is too slow and unevolving unless there is some built in
>> >> selection
>> >> of options
>> >> via quality decisions/agency that might be able to build up more 
>> >> complex
>> >> structures?
>> >>
>> >> Selection of fitest at breeding gets on just fine with just 
>> >> re-breeding
>> >> lots
>> >> of bacteria.
>> >>
>> >> David M
>> >>
>> >>
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