[MD] Natural or supernatural?

[david buchanan]

David M suggested "Grammars of Creation" by George Steiner.

dmb says:
Thanks. Looks interesting. Wish I had the time. Steiner seems to be doing 
some very Pirsigian work there. I mean, the fusion of creativity and 
invention echos ZAMM and the SODV paper, where mechanics are artists and 
physicists are too. Its a parallel to the idea in ZAMM that, once upon a 
time in ancient Greece, there was no serious distinction between creative 
processes and manufacturing techniques, if you will.

David M said:
What about all the boats you don't build but could have? Better still lets 
say cars. What about the cars that we could have built, far less polluting 
cars perhaps. A real, possible, important and missed opportunity but 
certainly not actual.

dmb says:
I just don't see the point. You seem to be using "actual" to describe 
concrete, physical things and opposing that to plans and imaginings. But I'm 
saying this distinction breaks down in the MOQ because  mental images, 
fiberglass boats and the creative process itself are all actual and real and 
a part of experience. Maybe you're leaving some crucial premise out or 
something. I mean, it seems you think this stuff about the possible is deep 
and profound. I just don't see that. Feel free to help me out there, eh?

David M said:
I would agree, creativity is not something that transcends experience it is 
at the heart of experience of course, experience can be divided into DQ and 
SQ for us Pirsigians. Of course, experience transcends what is merely 
actual.

dmb interupts:
In what sense does "experience transcend what is merely actual"? I don't see 
why any experience should be considered less than actual. How is it not an 
actual experience. And if its within the realm of experience, then why are 
you calling it transcendent? Because it transcends "material" reality?

David M:
Sartre's favorite example of the significance of the possible that is not 
actual is the experience of going to meet a friend who does not turn up at 
the bar. This creates an experience of the absence of the friend, your 
experience is simply of an empty bar, but its experienced meaning is 
captured
in what was possible but not actual.

dmb says:
I don't see the "significance" of the "experienced meaning" of your friends 
absence. Again, I get the impression that you take this to be deep and 
profound. I don't get that. All I see here is a disappointed guy getting 
drunk with strangers. ...Imagine the possibilites. ;-)

David M
For me, existence is this very journey through the possible, what we call 
actual is simply the path and journey you are able to undertake.

dmb says:
Again, there must be something you're not telling me. I can see that you're 
trying to say something about the very nature of existence, but it just 
looks like a bad birthday card to me.

David M said:
What is god other than the formless nothing that is all potential and 
nothing actual? Which is not a conception Plato would have been too 
comfortable with.

dmb says:
God is the formless nothing of pure potential? Wow. That's deep, man.

...Can I buy some pot from you?

David M
Hope you enjoyed your possible but not actual whiskey.

dmb says:
Not having drinks with you created such a meaningful absence that I'm 
virtually hung over and my holographic vomit looks just like a painting by 
Jackson Pollack. It really makes you think, huh?

Yea, sometimes I try a little too hard to be funny.

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