[MD] Natural or supernatural?

[Peter Corteen]

Some artful counters there dmb; I make you ahead now!

Regards

Peter

On 22/09/06, david buchanan <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> David M suggested "Grammars of Creation" by George Steiner.
>
> dmb says:
> Thanks. Looks interesting. Wish I had the time. Steiner seems to be doing
> some very Pirsigian work there. I mean, the fusion of creativity and
> invention echos ZAMM and the SODV paper, where mechanics are artists and
> physicists are too. Its a parallel to the idea in ZAMM that, once upon a
> time in ancient Greece, there was no serious distinction between creative
> processes and manufacturing techniques, if you will.
>
> David M said:
> What about all the boats you don't build but could have? Better still lets
> say cars. What about the cars that we could have built, far less polluting
> cars perhaps. A real, possible, important and missed opportunity but
> certainly not actual.
>
> dmb says:
> I just don't see the point. You seem to be using "actual" to describe
> concrete, physical things and opposing that to plans and imaginings. But
> I'm
> saying this distinction breaks down in the MOQ because  mental images,
> fiberglass boats and the creative process itself are all actual and real
> and
> a part of experience. Maybe you're leaving some crucial premise out or
> something. I mean, it seems you think this stuff about the possible is
> deep
> and profound. I just don't see that. Feel free to help me out there, eh?
>
> David M said:
> I would agree, creativity is not something that transcends experience it
> is
> at the heart of experience of course, experience can be divided into DQ
> and
> SQ for us Pirsigians. Of course, experience transcends what is merely
> actual.
>
> dmb interupts:
> In what sense does "experience transcend what is merely actual"? I don't
> see
> why any experience should be considered less than actual. How is it not an
> actual experience. And if its within the realm of experience, then why are
> you calling it transcendent? Because it transcends "material" reality?
>
> David M:
> Sartre's favorite example of the significance of the possible that is not
> actual is the experience of going to meet a friend who does not turn up at
> the bar. This creates an experience of the absence of the friend, your
> experience is simply of an empty bar, but its experienced meaning is
> captured
> in what was possible but not actual.
>
> dmb says:
> I don't see the "significance" of the "experienced meaning" of your
> friends
> absence. Again, I get the impression that you take this to be deep and
> profound. I don't get that. All I see here is a disappointed guy getting
> drunk with strangers. ...Imagine the possibilites. ;-)
>
> David M
> For me, existence is this very journey through the possible, what we call
> actual is simply the path and journey you are able to undertake.
>
> dmb says:
> Again, there must be something you're not telling me. I can see that
> you're
> trying to say something about the very nature of existence, but it just
> looks like a bad birthday card to me.
>
> David M said:
> What is god other than the formless nothing that is all potential and
> nothing actual? Which is not a conception Plato would have been too
> comfortable with.
>
> dmb says:
> God is the formless nothing of pure potential? Wow. That's deep, man.
>
> ...Can I buy some pot from you?
>
> David M
> Hope you enjoyed your possible but not actual whiskey.
>
> dmb says:
> Not having drinks with you created such a meaningful absence that I'm
> virtually hung over and my holographic vomit looks just like a painting by
> Jackson Pollack. It really makes you think, huh?
>
> Yea, sometimes I try a little too hard to be funny.
>
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