[MD] New Model Army, Mystic(DQ) Experience, and Religion (SQ) as Power

[david buchanan]

ian glendinning said to David M:
You're right though, whilst I express atheism, it's really a non-issue for 
me, quite different to say DMB for whom it is an almost crusading issue to 
be fought at each opportunity. Which isn't to say I don't denounce dogmatic 
(religious) extremism in "real life" ... I just see no point denouncing 
theism per se.

dmb replies:
Atheism is  "really a non-issue" for you. Hold that thought. I'll get back 
to it in a minute. Let me just ask you about the last part, the part where 
you see "no point". I have quoted Pirsig and lots of other sources to make 
this point. Can you say anything about what you objected to or whatever? I 
mean, what part of Pirsig's anti-theism comment do you disagree with? Is 
there something about the Oxford Companion's description you'd take issue 
with? Does Joseph Campbell's explanation seem pointless for any particular 
reason? Do you dismiss Northrop's distinction between East and West because 
of something in his argument or is it because its just a "crusading issue to 
be fought at each opportunity" for him too? I mean, I'd like to know the 
specifics of why you see no point.

Ian also said:
And strangely it's probably the only point where I find myself at odds with 
DMB. I love his thoughts (and his writing) in every other respect. Weird.

dmb says:
Really? That is weird. I find very little to agree with in your posts. And 
I'm frequently, personally offended by your remarks. I mean, characterizing 
me as a crusader is a bit insulting and dismissive, don't you think? 
Crusader? How could you call me that, of all things? You know how much I 
hate Christians. Why couldn't you call me a saleman or a nag or something 
that doesn't imply any associations with those dirty rotten Christians, that 
I hate, and am planning to repress, and outlaw, and anybody know where I can 
get a set of blueprints for a death camp?

Ian said:
Which always makes me question whether I'm just agnostic. I always conclude 
no, I'm actually atheist ... like, it's an issue important enough for me to 
have a strong view on (which I clearly do).

dmb says:
You have a strong view on this important issue? I remind you that you just 
finished saying the very opposite. This is the thought I promised I'd get to 
a minute ago, where you said, "atheism is a non-issue". So which position 
will you adopt a minute from now? This offends me even more than personal 
insult. I think, at least sometimes, you are quite the bullshitter.

David M said previously:
...the materialism got dropped, and so did the atheism because it really has 
no basis, and you get to see that there are experiences and possibilties to 
ponder on the other side of mere disciplines, and the best appears at 
certain extremes of religious & philosophical speculation and also art and 
poetry (maybe also some rather speculative science, about creation rather 
than mere repetition).

dmb says:
Atheism has no basis? What do mean? Atheism simply denies the claims of the 
theist, as a matter of fact, because they have no basis. Other than that, 
the atheist, or rather the anti-theistic stance, does not assert anything 
positive. Its even a little strange that there has to be a word to describe 
the absence of a belief or assertion. As Sam Harris points out, we don't 
identify ourselves or others as people who do NOT believe in astrology or 
Zeus or Athena or anything like that. We simply don't believe in astrology 
or Zeus or Athena. We'd only make a point of it if somebody were to come 
along and say, for example, that the MOQ supports the beliefs of 
astrologers. Atheism is like that, only much bigger. And your "sentence" 
also implies that the atheist is somehow unable to ponder the sublime, that 
it means being stuck on the wrong side of "mere disciplines".  I mean, you 
seem to be loading the term with all sorts of negative qualities quite 
unfairly. You seem to be adding a cold-hearted, unromanitic scientism to the 
concept. Maybe you're talking about your former atheist self, but these 
certainly aren't inherent parts of atheism, you know?

But they would very likely reject the speculative science of "creation". 
I'll give you that one.

Thanks.
dmb

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