[MD] New Model Army, Mystic(DQ) Experience, and Religion (SQ) as Power

[Stephen Hannon]

Hello dmb,

[Steve H with Pirsig quotes]
Pirsig, page 310 ZMM, talking about gumption:
"I like it also because it describes exactly what happens to someone
who connects with Quality.  He gets filled with gumption.  The Greeks
called it "enthousiasmos, the root of "enthusiasm," which means
literally "filled with theos," or God, or Quality.  See how that
fits?"

page 262 ZMM:
"In the area of Religion, the rational relationship of Quality to the
Godhead needs to be more thoroughly established, and this I hope to do
much later on.  For the time being one can meditate on the fact that
the old English roots for the Buddha and Quality, God and good, appear
to be identical."

I have posted these before, and combined with DMB's quotes all it
shows to me is that Pirsig has contradictions in his writings.  Just
like there are contradictions in the Bible.  I have never claimed to
blindly follow the Bible, that would be ignorant.  Unfornatley we have
some people in the world who do; there was a fire-and-brimstone
preacher on the Diag on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday spreading his
intolerant ideology.  I simply don't think that because I am Christian
that I should be compared to people like that.

I stopped posting on religion awhile ago because I'm not sure how I
want to argue for it.  Maybe I completely misread ZMM and LILA when I
read them, but I looked back and did find these quotes posted above
and they really are there.

[dmb]
How could you call me that, of all things? You know how much I hate
Christians. Why couldn't you call me a saleman or a nag or something
that doesn't imply any associations with those dirty rotten
Christians, that I hate, and am planning to repress, and outlaw, and
anybody know where I can get a set of blueprints for a death camp?

[Steve H]
No I don;t know where you could get blueprints for a death camp.  But
I bet you would make me your first detainee wouldn't you?

Have a nice day,
Steve H


On 9/29/06, david buchanan <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com> wrote:
> ian glendinning said to David M:
> You're right though, whilst I express atheism, it's really a non-issue for
> me, quite different to say DMB for whom it is an almost crusading issue to
> be fought at each opportunity. Which isn't to say I don't denounce dogmatic
> (religious) extremism in "real life" ... I just see no point denouncing
> theism per se.
>
> dmb replies:
> Atheism is  "really a non-issue" for you. Hold that thought. I'll get back
> to it in a minute. Let me just ask you about the last part, the part where
> you see "no point". I have quoted Pirsig and lots of other sources to make
> this point. Can you say anything about what you objected to or whatever? I
> mean, what part of Pirsig's anti-theism comment do you disagree with? Is
> there something about the Oxford Companion's description you'd take issue
> with? Does Joseph Campbell's explanation seem pointless for any particular
> reason? Do you dismiss Northrop's distinction between East and West because
> of something in his argument or is it because its just a "crusading issue to
> be fought at each opportunity" for him too? I mean, I'd like to know the
> specifics of why you see no point.
>
> Ian also said:
> And strangely it's probably the only point where I find myself at odds with
> DMB. I love his thoughts (and his writing) in every other respect. Weird.
>
> dmb says:
> Really? That is weird. I find very little to agree with in your posts. And
> I'm frequently, personally offended by your remarks. I mean, characterizing
> me as a crusader is a bit insulting and dismissive, don't you think?
> Crusader? How could you call me that, of all things? You know how much I
> hate Christians. Why couldn't you call me a saleman or a nag or something
> that doesn't imply any associations with those dirty rotten Christians, that
> I hate, and am planning to repress, and outlaw, and anybody know where I can
> get a set of blueprints for a death camp?
>
> Ian said:
> Which always makes me question whether I'm just agnostic. I always conclude
> no, I'm actually atheist ... like, it's an issue important enough for me to
> have a strong view on (which I clearly do).
>
> dmb says:
> You have a strong view on this important issue? I remind you that you just
> finished saying the very opposite. This is the thought I promised I'd get to
> a minute ago, where you said, "atheism is a non-issue". So which position
> will you adopt a minute from now? This offends me even more than personal
> insult. I think, at least sometimes, you are quite the bullshitter.
>
> David M said previously:
> ...the materialism got dropped, and so did the atheism because it really has
> no basis, and you get to see that there are experiences and possibilties to
> ponder on the other side of mere disciplines, and the best appears at
> certain extremes of religious & philosophical speculation and also art and
> poetry (maybe also some rather speculative science, about creation rather
> than mere repetition).
>
> dmb says:
> Atheism has no basis? What do mean? Atheism simply denies the claims of the
> theist, as a matter of fact, because they have no basis. Other than that,
> the atheist, or rather the anti-theistic stance, does not assert anything
> positive. Its even a little strange that there has to be a word to describe
> the absence of a belief or assertion. As Sam Harris points out, we don't
> identify ourselves or others as people who do NOT believe in astrology or
> Zeus or Athena or anything like that. We simply don't believe in astrology
> or Zeus or Athena. We'd only make a point of it if somebody were to come
> along and say, for example, that the MOQ supports the beliefs of
> astrologers. Atheism is like that, only much bigger. And your "sentence"
> also implies that the atheist is somehow unable to ponder the sublime, that
> it means being stuck on the wrong side of "mere disciplines".  I mean, you
> seem to be loading the term with all sorts of negative qualities quite
> unfairly. You seem to be adding a cold-hearted, unromanitic scientism to the
> concept. Maybe you're talking about your former atheist self, but these
> certainly aren't inherent parts of atheism, you know?
>
> But they would very likely reject the speculative science of "creation".
> I'll give you that one.
>
> Thanks.
> dmb
>
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