[MD] Biological Quality & Social Conservatism

[David M]

Hi Ian

Thought thise might be an elite vs democracy debate?

DM

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ian glendinning" <psybertron at gmail.com>
To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] Biological Quality & Social Conservatism


> I'd agree David - education, education, education .... but ...
>
> At any point in time - in the never ending process of learning - there
> will be a "wisdom gradient" and we need some answer to how any current
> imbalance of power and values should be addressed .... pragmatically I
> have no big fundamental argument here .... as I said in practice any
> real life "free democracy" will have pragmatic institutions in place
> ... I only find it necessary to raise the argument when the
> total-freedom-or-nothing fundamentalists chime in.
>
> Ian
>
> On 8/15/07, David M <davidint at blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> Hi Ian
>>
>> I kinda think we need to try a different angle:
>> that we need to try to make everyone as wise as
>> possible so that more or us move in a positive
>> direction, so that makes education key.
>>
>> David M
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "ian glendinning" <psybertron at gmail.com>
>> To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 5:13 PM
>> Subject: Re: [MD] Biological Quality & Social Conservatism
>>
>>
>> > Arlo, Platt, I realize I'm diving way back into this thread, and not
>> > followed the whole trail. Just responding to this bit ...
>> >
>> >> [Arlo previously]
>> >> >From whose intellect do we derive the right of "free speech", a right
>> >> >that I
>> >> take it you think the majority should not be able to vote away?
>> >>
>> >> [Platt]
>> >> Good question. What's the answer?
>> >>
>> >> [Arlo]
>> >> Well, I suppose the "literal" answer would be, in this case, a 
>> >> "consensus
>> >> of
>> >> learned individuals appealing to philosophy and reason". Perhaps 
>> >> adding
>> >> "with
>> >> the power to enforce their decision on anyone who would dissent"
>> >> (assuming
>> >> there were colonists who may have not liked the whole "free speech"
>> >> thing).
>> >>
>> >
>> > But, I find this keeps coming up in many areas of discussion. It's
>> > hard to avoid some concept of "elitism" in designing ideal governance
>> > ... some group whose qualities (intellectual or otherwise) count for
>> > more votive power than the members of the constituency as a whole.
>> >
>> > It's a minefield of "who says" with a history paved with disasterous
>> > experience, so it's very hard to talk about without knee-jerk
>> > reactions to the implied arrogance of power. Equally there is evidence
>> > in well-formed institutions that the principle is corrcect ....
>> > whatever the process of appointment of the judiciary in a modern
>> > democracy .... there is a sense in that once appointed their "wise"
>> > judgments carry authority and are enforced socially.
>> >
>> > Basically, even in the most free and egalitarian democratic
>> > arrangements, the "wise' need to be given more "clout". (A point not
>> > lost on Plato, as you suggest Arlo.) .... just shifts the problem to
>> > how / who decides who's wise, and where the checks and balances lie.
>> > Discuss.
>> >
>> > Ian
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