[MD] The Anti-entropic Miopic

[Squonkriff at aol.com]

<snip>
 
[Case]
Case is chemistry and physics and family and friends and work and  play and
all kinds of relationships. Ultimately they all reduce physics but  with each
level of reduction something is lost. What is lost is nifty  new
relationships acquired as each new level emerged from the ones below  that.

Mark 02-02-07:
How can X co-operate with Y if X =  Y?

[Case]
What is that supposed to mean?
 
Mark 03-02-07: Hi Case,
"Case: 3c. One could also say  biological life finds incredible ways  to
cooperate with inorganic laws."
You see, i thought you were suggesting that bio life was inorganic  laws?
So it seemed you were saying inorganic laws cooperate with inorganic  laws.

<snip>

[Case]
No, I said name one. Any one will do. We are looking for a  biologist who
claims that biology violates any of the laws of  thermodynamics.
 
 
Mark 03-02-07:
I don't know of one.
You have insisted the Sun pumps our local - mistakenly thought of as a  
closed - system from outside with the energy required to drive biological  
evolution.
In strict accordance with thermal entropy this is so.
I don't know enough about the link between increasing complexity and  thermal 
entropy to be able to prove biological life is doing something which  
challenges thermal entropy.
What i think i should be reaching for is the suggestion that biological  life 
rides on the tide of thermal entropy to do things thermal entropy at the  
inorganic level cannot do? (non-carbon based chemistry).
Perhaps a good way of looking at this would be to suggest that biological  
life seizes entropy and directs it for it's own ends?
The result of those ends is an ever more precise utilisation of entropy  
itself?
This seems to accord with the moq's suggestion that biological patterns use  
the patterns of the lower level.
But you have already pointed this out Case. I should have listened to  you.
Having said this, i don't feel you fully appreciate the significance of the  
way in which thermal entropy is being utilised?
The very forms of utilisation demarcate a dividing line between the  
biological and the inorganic.
Maybe the laws of thermodynamics will change to accommodate new  ideas?

[Case]
Entropy is not a measurement of complexity it is a  measurement of energy
dissipating. Energy neither increases nor decreases it  just changes form. 

I have mentioned several times how inappropriate  Pirsig's tale of people
left on rocks is. Now you cite it back to  me?

Chemicals do spontaneous produce life forms. That is what biology is  all
about. But it really would help if you had the faintest clue what you  were
talking about.
 
 
Mark 03-02-07:
I agree.

<snip>

[Case]
I do not give it a lot of thought but apparently my early  exposure to
existentialism took hold. What you seem to propose as an  alternative is hand
wringing and wishful thinking.
 
Mark 03-02-07:
Oh dear. It's as bad as that is it?
I apologise for going off of the deep end re: life does not obey  entropy.
That statement is rubbish as far as thermal entropy goes: life ruthlessly  
uses thermal entropy.
Other forms of entropy have been advocated - with varying degrees of  utility 
- and it's a contentious area.
Those who won't entertain it simply deny any use at all - no argument  
necessary.
I think there is something in new perspectives on entropy but  i've been 
sloppy while accusing you of sloppy thinking.
Sorry about that mate.
 
Not sure if i'm short sighted or seeing over the horizon?
Love,
Mark