[MD] the MOQ and its environment

[skutvik at online.no]

Marsha and Ian

16 Feb. Marsha said: 

> It seems to me that both "falling to the ground" and Newton's 
> explanation are descriptions.  The MOQ is also a description. Both DQ
> and sq within the MOQ are descriptions.  But the Quality that is
> described in the MOQ represents an experience, a value experience, not
> another description.

I can't see how "quality and experience" escapes the black hole 
of descriptions (why not "language" it's an absolute shock-and 
watertight argument?). Even the "pointing finger" requires 
language.

> Are you wanting to put into the MOQ the sages/buddhas level?  Those
> who have fully realized the view from above all levels?

Ian said re.the above:

    I (and others) have made that kind of suggestion before, 
    an enlightened level at the top of or above the 
    "traditional" intellectual level. Yes, it may be a static 
    pattern to name it and place it there, but there is nothing 
    says the MoQ can't support that evolving to even higher 
    levels of enlightenment (where we'll have to find new 
    words to describe what we're talking about.) 

"The enlightened level"  would be the MOQ itself. It is "out of 
intellect" and it shows a (static) level-like relationship with 
intellect, but simultaneously is what contains it all. Anything less 
will bring the "Gravity argument" back to haunt it, that one is one 
of the many great insights that ZMM contains.   

I saw that you - Marsha - made a disclaimer regarding this, but 
you need not have, because it is what catches it best. Either the 
MOQ is a new  reality or sheer nonsense, all effort to make it an 
intellectual pattern is doomed. 

What transcends the S/O must be D/S (dynamic/static)-divided 
(or vice versa)  and in LILA Pirsig describes how Hinduism has 
reconciled the two. aspects. Hinduism is much older than 
Buddhism and how the two relates is beyond me, but I think the 
MOQ is even better than "orientalism" because of its long S/O-
intellectual sojourn. Thereby it becomes the long-sought bridge 
between the East and the West. But to fill that role it must not 
revert to "mysticism" as something beyond it. 

IMO

Bo