[MD] Dawkins a Materialist (is watching?)

Tue Jan 23 05:56:50 PST 2007

I think the tenses are all wrong here, 
It's better to say "emerges" rather than emerged.

Then, "such a system" comes now from quality interractions, still.

"does it emerge suddenly from nothing?" 
yes, with every passing moment static patterns are actualised out of nothingness.  

Right?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of pholden at davtv.com
> Sent: 23 January 2007 13:25
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] Dawkins a Materialist (is watching?)
> 
> 
> Quoting ARLO J BENSINGER JR <ajb102 at psu.edu>:
> 
> > [Arlo previously]
> > The Universe, and mind, emerged from Quality interactions 
> among individuals in
> > increasingly complex collectives.
> > 
> > [Platt]
> > Where did such a system come from?
> > 
> > [Arlo]
> > >From those Quality interactions.
> 
> I mean where did the system of Quality interactions come 
> from? Did it suddenly
> emerge from nothing? 
>  
> > [Arlo previously]
> > Are Quality and Consciousness separate? Or is Quality conscious?
> > 
> > [Platt]
> > Consciousness is separate but related to Quality which, as 
> you know, is direct
> > experience.
> > 
> > [Arlo]
> > Where did this consciousness come from?
> 
> It is the precondition of such questions as "Where did it come from?"
> 
> > [Platt]
> > What about direct experience. Is that also a metaphor? 
> > 
> > [Arlo]
> > Pre-intellectual experience, mysticism we may agree to call 
> it, is by definition
> > "pre-metaphor" (although the terms here are all metaphors 
> to describe this
> > after-the-fact). But at the moment this experience gets 
> woven with words,
> > descriptions and the like, we are dealing with metaphor.
> 
> Ah. So Consciousness is also pre-metaphor I presume.
> 
> > [Arlo previously]
> > Again... I emphasize the PAGES and depth of Pirsig's 
> insight, which extends far
> > beyond this simply jib. And was selected by Pirsig, like 
> Zen was in ZMM, for a
> > reason. Second, to say this is parallel to me saying 
> "Christian ethics allow
> > burning women at the stake". 
> > 
> > [Platt]
> > Which you take great delight in emphasizing, among other 
> horrors. Shall we
> > mention bloodbaths sponsored by atheists?
> > 
> > [Arlo]
> > If our morality comes from "who or what is responsible for 
> more deaths, or more
> > recent deaths, or more hideous deaths, etc." then we are in 
> trouble. Whether we
> > literalize dogma or atheism, the dangers of abuse are 
> severe. I do not turn a
> > blind-eye to the horrors of atheist dictators, nor should 
> you turn a blind-eye
> > to the horrors of theistic dictators. In both cases, it is 
> not spirituality nor
> > a lack thereof that is to blame, but the literalization of 
> that belief. 
> 
> But according to you there is no literalization. It's all 
> metaphors. Where have
> I gone wrong?
> 
> > [Platt]
> > Well, yes, but I thought we were talking about social 
> ethics, not enlightenment.
> > 
> > [Arlo]
> > I'd say the two are flip-sides of the same coin. 
> 
> Which raises an interesting question. How can I know that my 
> "enlightenment"
> leads to what you or others consider "ethical?"
> 
>  
>  
> 
> 
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