[MD] Quantum weirdness

[Case]

[Ham]
What Case is saying is that CAUSE is not infinite; you're confused because
you assume that cause equates to SOURCE.  Cause and effect can be ascribed
to everything that happens in existence, beginning and ending with
nothingness, if the law of entropy still holds.  However, this says nothing
about the Source of existence which, like you, I regard as infinite (and
absolute).

[Case]
Well here Case is back in the third person. Of course Case says cause is
finite. There is this cause and that cause and those ever so hard to see
cause, generally followed by effects. First cause and final effect are
matters of speculation. Speculation of this sort needs to address the
circumstances we hold in common. The best evidence we have today is based on
theories and experiments that have been pursued on three continents for the
past 300 years. Those carrying on this work today have a pretty secure grasp
on both the strengths and weakness current thinking. 

Nothing I have found discussed in this area suggests a weakness in the
theory that requires any sort of ongoing ultimate source. What is discussed
is fields and particles, waves and dimensions that ripple. Out of this
discussion comes of clear and consistent understanding of matter and energy
and systems of biology.

But Ham seem to suggest there is a god shaped hole in conventional
scientific thought; the need of some ongoing source beyond what is generally
agreed upon.  

[Ham]
I believe you have moved beyond physicality and see the need for a
metaphysical source that is foreign to Case's objectivist construct.  For
example, I suspect you understand that time didn't really begin 14 billion
years ago; it began the moment you became aware of change (most probably at
some indeterminate stage in your prenatal development).  Time is man's mode
of awareness, not an attribute of an external reality.

[Case]
SOM is much maligned here of course but indulge me for a moment as I wallow
in it. The lower two MoQ levels of inorganic and biological can be regards
as objective while the upper two levels are subjective. What you describe is
the subjective.  But to talk about this kind of subjectivity without regard
to neuroscience, psychology and medicine is just idle chatter. The
subjective experience of time begins with waking and ends in sleep. It is
discontinuous. It appears that we accept input while waking and we file it
at night.

As individuals we reconstruct reality internally. We create our own
illusions. Much is known about how this takes place. Electrochemical
reactions in the nervous system resonate within each of us. There are lots
of specific questions but the broad outlines of brain physiology are known.
How can you talk about our subjective nature without reference to this body
of human understanding?

[Ham]
Without subjective awareness there would be no physical world.  

[Case]
Without the physical world there would be no subjective awareness.

[Ham]
But man is a finite creature alienated from absolute reality.  He doesn't
perceive things absolutely, he experiences them incrementally, as a sequence
of events in time.  And, because of his finite limitations, he
intellectualizes his reality perspective as an evolutionary process.

[Case]
As I have stated we are not limited to sequential awareness. We transcend
time through memory and modeling. We can imagine infinities and reduce them
to points. We are capable of fantastic reconstructions of ultimate reality.
We show them on the silver screen and charge admission. We state them in
equations. We reshape the world around us to suit our fancy. Frankly the
idea of "ultimate reality" doesn't really add much to the picture we have.
It seems more of an appendix than the heart of the matter.

[Ham]
The truth is that existence is a process of his own creation.

[Case]
Existence is a process that we all participate in. We know how lots of it
works. We have a good idea of what we don't know and why we don't know it.
What else do we need to know?

[Ham]
But you're not going to sell that to Case because he's mired in the
mathematical probability of experienced events that have no place in
ultimate reality. That's why he says metaphysical concepts, "the kind of
thing Ham does is just passing mental gas."  Have some pity on Case though,
Ron; he's never going to solve this enigma through physics, and he knows it.


[Case]
Ham solves problems that don't exist and says, "What a good boy am I." Ham
insists that he is treading on some higher plain where facts and experience
do not matter. Ham says metaphysics need have no actual consequences, need
address no matters of substance, is immune to testing and requires no
support other than it must sound good to Ham. 

[Ham]
(Besides, it's much more fun to insult your opponent.) 

[Case]
At least Ham is not trying to pass it off as silent but deadly. I think the
full flatulence of what he says above is obvious to anyone who gets close
enough.

That WAS kinda fun. I give you a point for at least getting something right.