[MD] What's missing

[skutvik at online.no]

Hi Marsha & Mati 

When Marsha asks me about something I answer in my usual 
"essay"-length way and she delivers a Koan-like something. 
Looks like Mati have more clout here ;-) 

On 29 Mar. Mati Palm-Leis wrote:
 
MV: 
> > I was suggesting that one can have a direct, nondualistic experience
> > that is prior to, or separate from, intellect.   But then when you try
> > to think or talk about it, you get tangled in the culture's dualistic
> > static pattern of value.

At first glance Marsha seems to be at the "cutting edge of time" 
stage (sightly altered)

    "Before the moon can be distinguished, there must be a 
    kind of nonintellectual awareness, which he called 
    awareness of Quality. You can't be aware that you've 
    seen a moon until after you've seen the moon, and 
    between the instant of vision and instant of awareness 
    there must be a time lag ...." (ZMM) 

.. but this indicates she nano-second delay between the sense 
impression and the "ah here am I (the subject) and up there is the 
moon (object)" In other words The infinitesimal pre-intellectual 
moment before DQ creates the post-intellectual subject/object 
pair.

Marsha however sounds to like going out under the moon (aware 
of the moon) to become emotional - awe-struck - but that's 
stepping down from the intellectual-rational plane to the social-
emotional one. And it's delightful and surely "pre-intellectual", but 
I suspect Marsha wants this to be an affirmation of the "pointing 
to the moon" example ... which it is not IMO. 

Mati commented:

> Mati: Bingo!!!!, and this analysis of the dualistic static pattern of
> value is the basis for philosophy. And when this static pattern is
> used to define reality from a rational context we have intellect.  Now 
> this pattern may seem cold and .... static, but.... I has also given
> us the capacity to come full circle and allow us to recognize the
> undivided reality of the moon being the moon. 

And I agree most profoundly. "This dualist static pattern (I hope 
he means S/O) ... "and  when this static pattern is used to define 
reality from a rational context we have intellect." Double bingo!  
Even better is his about intellect being the necessary platform for 
(I hope he means the MOQ) which provide a new  non-S/O (but 
still dynamic/static) vista.      

> MV: 
> It seems to me that intellect coexists with language, snip....
 
> Mati: As it does with the social values. 

A most valid point!

> MV: ... and in the West they are both predicated on a subject/object
> point-of-view.   I've wondered about your question too.  Maybe there
> are non-Western cultures that are not built on dualistic
> understanding.  Poetry is often non-dualistic.  Right?   Native
> American?  I would love to here from other too.

Sure there are non-S/O social value-based cultures. Emotion (the 
social "expression" I call) is irrational (reason=intellect's ditto) No 
sarcasm or condescending or anything, Social Reality is called 
Aretê in ZMM feels like a "paradise lost" and intellect feels "cold" 
(as Mati says) and - phew - why I insist on the MOQ being 
beyond intellect.   
 
> Mati: Sure there are non-dualistic experiences, poetry, art, etc.
> however as you perhaps elude to understanding requires definition and
> definition requires a dualistic capacity to establish meaning that is
> philosophy. Just as the moon is just the moon, philosophy is just
> philosophy, a beauty all in its own.

Agree! Even in our intellectual-rational age there are means to 
induce non-S/O emotions and can be evoked by various means. 
When I am to paint I put on an audio-book of a favorite author, it 
puts me in the right emotional mood, while news, economical and 
political analyses on the radio is the death of inspiration.     

Bo