[MD] The Top Down Fallacy

[Krimel]

[Krimel]
Sure, do you think that events in the future are controlling the past and
present?

gav: no.

[Krimel follow-up]
So you are not advocating a "top down" you are saying neither one works?

[Krimel]
Do you think that spiritual sense of oneness provides knowledge of a truth
beyond experience or an experience that is difficult to classify?

gav:it is not a truth 'beyond experience'. it is the truth *of* experience.

[Krimel follow-up]
How could an experience be false?

[Krimel]
In what way does evolution run counter to entropy?

gav: 'evolution' usually refers to biological evolution - life. entropy is
the increase in disorder of a system or the decrease in order. life is the
increase in order of a system...in this case an ecosystem. life, left to
itself, will produce a more and more complex and biodiverse ecosystem from
even the most frugal beginnings.

[Krimel follow-up]
Doesn't this ignore the steady stream of solar radiation energizing the
earth's surface?

[Krimel]
Do you think there is purpose in the universe beyond what we humans bring to
the table?

gav: the universe cannot be separated from we humans. 'we' bringing stuff to
the table is how the universe brings stuff to the table. meaning can be
split into two kinds - implicit and explicit. there is no explicit meaning
without humans. all experience is implicitly meaningful.

[Krimel follow-up]
So was there a universe before humans got here?

[Krimel follow-up to follow-up]
If it is we who are injecting meaning into the universe and we seem to be
injecting more and more of it all the time; doesn't that suggest a bottom-up
evolutionary progression?