[MD] The Top Down Fallacy

[gav]

Krimel <Krimel at Krimel.com> wrote: [Krimel]
Sure, do you think that events in the future are controlling the past and
present?

gav: no.

[Krimel follow-up]
So you are not advocating a "top down" you are saying neither one works?

gav, follow-up: they are both relative terms. i am saying that choosing one polar option or the other is the characteristic SOM approach - adversarial dichotomies. pirsig's novel approach to the twin horns of these dilemmas was to reject both, to go between them to the unitary origin of both.

[Krimel]
Do you think that spiritual sense of oneness provides knowledge of a truth
beyond experience or an experience that is difficult to classify?

gav:it is not a truth 'beyond experience'. it is the truth *of* experience.

[Krimel follow-up]
How could an experience be false?

gav, follow-up: it can't be. experience is unitary and prior to polar relativisation. 

[Krimel]
In what way does evolution run counter to entropy?

gav: 'evolution' usually refers to biological evolution - life. entropy is
the increase in disorder of a system or the decrease in order. life is the
increase in order of a system...in this case an ecosystem. life, left to
itself, will produce a more and more complex and biodiverse ecosystem from
even the most frugal beginnings.

[Krimel follow-up]
Doesn't this ignore the steady stream of solar radiation energizing the
earth's surface?

gav, follow-up: the solar system seems to be net entropic...yet life is a force that is in oppositional balance to this - anti-entropic. evolution. time may wear down the mightiest mountain....but evolution moves in the opposite direction - towards the creation of higher energy states. elan vital, as bergson put it.



[Krimel]
Do you think there is purpose in the universe beyond what we humans bring to
the table?

gav: the universe cannot be separated from we humans. 'we' bringing stuff to
the table is how the universe brings stuff to the table. meaning can be
split into two kinds - implicit and explicit. there is no explicit meaning
without humans. all experience is implicitly meaningful.

[Krimel follow-up]
So was there a universe before humans got here?

gav, follow-up: don't know

[Krimel follow-up to follow-up]
If it is we who are injecting meaning into the universe and we seem to be
injecting more and more of it all the time; doesn't that suggest a bottom-up
evolutionary progression?

gav, follow-up: that suggests a habit. evolution progresses towards states with higher degrees of freedom. 

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