[MD] SOM - do we need it?

[Ian Glendinning]

Pity this didn't generate more discussion gav, it's excellent IMHO.

".... SOM is so entrenched in our collective psyche that it is very
difficult to conceive of it being superceded. if this supercession
were not difficult then pirsig needn't have spent decades thinking
through the problem. pirsig is not the first philosopher to recognise
the subject/object schism...indeed this profound dilemma has been
haunting philosophy for centuries. to move beyond SOM requires radical
surgery."

Do we need SOM ? Maybe lingustic / symbolic communication will always
rely on subjects and objects, so maybe there is always some "use" for
SOMism, but what is clear are two things

(1) that it is a highly misleading way to view the world itself.
(2) it's is such an established view that it will take real effort to
shake it off.

Interested in the Dostoevsky reference ... just finished Crime &
Punsihment (after Karamazov Brothers last year) .... I get the
allusions all the time, wonderful stuff, but I'm struggling to pin
down specifics. Could you elaborate your point on that ?

Ian.

On 7/28/08, gav <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> Pirsig's mission is to replace SOM with MOQ, so why are many on this list reluctant to let SOM go?
>
> the answer, i believe, is that .
>
> the intellectual cannot be solely SOM: the MOQ is an idea and it is not SOM.
>
> to let go of SOM is to let go of the idea of dualism, of solipsism, of the possibility of pure objectivity. instead the subjective becomes partnered with the intersubjective (to follow husserl and merleau-ponty). the intersubjective world - the previously 'objective' world - is the world of phenomenal consensus.
>
> with the copernican re-ordering of the universe a schism was created: the everyday world of our perceptions was usurped by the idea of the 'real' order of a heliocentric universe. the locus is not with our own body-subject and its being-in-the-world, but with an abstract point of reference. this abstract realm is only accessible by the intellect. in other words reason becomes the sole method of recognising truth - plato's world of forms, christian heaven, and the pre-eminence of (SOM) intellect all presuppose and perpetuate this abstract-phenomenal dichotomy with precedence given to the abstract. in other words the abstract becomes real and the phenomenal becomes epiphenomenal: this is baudrillard's 'simulacrum' or the spectacular reality of the situationists. SOM is part of this worldview and it can't be separated from it. to try and hang on to SOM is to miss the point of pirsig's work.
>
> the copernican revolution enthroned the sun as the centre of things; this is a paternal standpoint. the earth is the goddess, the sun is god and the human is supposed to be the dynamic union of the two. since copernicus the earth has become merely an object and only god - the male aspect of divinity - is recognised.
>
> we perceive from earth. our experiential locus is the body-subject - this is the experiential centre of the universe (god is an intelligible sphere whose centre is everywhere and circumference nowhere - cusa). only from this point of view can we esemplastically reconcile the realms of heaven and earth into a dynamic unity.
>
> if we need more proof of the need for SOM to be superceded we need only look to phenomenology and existentialism. the psychopathological effects of SOM were recognised and predicted by husserl and others (most famously dostoevsky). SOM is the 'disensoulment' of the earth - of ourselves. it is the mechanisation of life and human and it is this that is the meaning of the robot/AI myths - NOT the production of truly intelligent autonomous mechanical beings, but the production of mechanical beings from truly intelligent autonomous ones!!!!!!!!
>
> so i entreat one and all to stay true to the core of pirsig's work. if you think SOM is okay then you are very sorely mistaken and you should probably go back and read bob's books again...slowly.
>
>
>
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