[MD] In and out of intellect.

[Andre Broersen]

Chris:

The " Arete" Pirsig talks about in ZMM must indeed be a social level value -
it seems Pirsig talks about it as though it was more similar to The Tao or
something along that line, but it seems far more likely that what the
sophists talked about when they said rhetoric was the only way of judging
people and "truth" etc and the " Arete"  talked about is things valued by
the social level.
Indeed the sophists activity was probably motivated by a mix of social
values and intellectual ones - but "Truth" as we know it had not been
established as a firm concept yet, so it was mixed up. Then enters Socrates
and the Western World is born. Literally. Slow birth-process perhaps. But
still.

Hi Chris and Ron and All

Just thought I'd jump in because this is interesting and intriguing.
Just a thought: according to Pirsig, and loads of historians, the Sophists
did teach arete which Pirsig equals with Quality.
It sounds Chris,(and correct me if I misinterpret your meaning) that,
because this arete was valued by the social level it is to be seen as
something less valued?? Is this what you mean?

This teaching (and understanding/experience of Quality at that time) took
place (more or less over a period of time before a 'proper' intellectual
level had emerged from the social level) in a way , I would want to call it,
uncontaminated-by-intellect.It was not defined because there were no
subjects and objects, no mind or matter. It was pure Quality, unmediated,
un-dissected by intellect.
This whole notion of 'truth' was undefined and I hope to think at that time
at least on equal par with Good.
I think that is why Pirsig compared it to the Tao. It was 'intellect' as
Bodvar suggests that fucked it all up...later. And then it needed to be
retrieved intellectualy, which is an impossibility...it is direct
experience, from the pre-intellectual 'era'. That's why we must kill all
intellectual patterns to get a glimps of it.

Also interesting to see this in the light of the discussion of the 'fine
mess' thread.

Just preparing to think about packing my things.
For what it is worth
Andre