[MD] In and out of intellect.

[Joseph Maurer]

On Wednesday 10 December 2008 11:50 PM Bo writes to Joe:

Hi Plumber Joe
 
5 Dec. you responded to my my question:
 
Bo before:
> > Almost all creatures sleep, thus when an animal wakes up it must  < > be to
a state different from oblivion. Is this state a weaker     > > version of the
> > human "selfconsciousness" (nineteenth century thinkers spoke about
> > "slumber"). Animals are known for their alertness and do not      > >
slumber.
> > Please address this issue before going on it seems to be much like
> > Phaedrus' "hot stove" insight that obviously launched him om his
> > Q-track, but no one seems to understand. I have tried the "sleep"
> > question on a lot of people without receiving a single response.
 
Joe: 
> A wonderful question.  Does a rock sleep? It is worn smooth by the
> brook. It is melted by volcanic action. It flies into space from
> volcanic explosions.Arock sleeps underground, and is awakened by the
> erosion in the riverbed. Sunlight warms it and makes it grow beyond
> its boundaries. Freezing water is irresistible and it splits.
 
 
Hi Bo and All,

[Bo]
I  thought it was a straightforward question, but you either didn't
understand it or evaded it. Sleep is a biological phenomenon and -
again - animals that sleep must necessarily wake up to a state
different from oblivion, yet animals aren't supposed to "have"
consciousness so what is the state they wake up to? IMO this wrecks
SOM's most pompous concept consciousness.
 
[Joe]
³Consciousness² is only the proper identifying marker of the social level. I
don¹t see your disgust with the word.  ³Asleep² is certainly a proper
description for someone who misconstrues the social level, or any level for
that matter.  That is why I started with the inorganic level.
 
> Sleep is a state of being.  My bones are awake while my            >
consciousness sleeps!
 
[Bo]
But what kind of consciousness is it that shuts down when a dog or a
bird or a fish fall asleep? This is what it's about. Only humans are
supposed to be (have) consciousness - at least the "hey, I am a
human being" type -  but can there be an unconscious consciousness?
It's here that the MOQ supplies an answer by introducing "value
perception" instead of the consciousness hoax.
 
[Joe]
I agree that ³value perception² is more precise than sleep or awake.  The
problem is that ³value perception² is indefinable. What value? Magnus in his
essay needed an umbrella term for DQ so he used ³big bang.² In some way the
steps of evolution are delineated Since ³consciousness² is reserved to the
Social level, animals do not participate in consciousness.  They have no
³value perception² outside of mathematics. Evolution is not creative. It
only makes manifest the DQ that is already there from the Big Bang!.

 
> Does a single cell have different functions?  Conscious cells sleep > and
re-supply their energy base in order to operate at full        > capacity.  What
if they haven¹t been trained in how to operate?     > Then, they know only sleep
or awake!  Nothing in between, like when > to rest for a greater challenge.
 
[Bo]
Your deliberations may be valid, but a bit off regarding my question  so I
leave it here in the hope that you will be a bit more to the point .... if
you care to pursue the issue that is?.
 
[Joe]
I tried to further the discussion about ³consciousness² so that it becomes a
proper analogy for the social level.  Self-awareness at the
Intellectual level, and probably higher functions for further levels to add
the variety of enlightenment to our spice of live.
 
Joe
 
Bo



On 12/10/08 11:50 PM, "skutvik at online.no" <skutvik at online.no> wrote:

> Hi Plumber Joe
> 
> 5 Dec. you responded to my my question:
> 
> Bo before:
>>> Almost all creatures sleep, thus when an animal wakes up it must be to a
>>> state different from oblivion. Is this state a weaker version of the
>>> human "selfconsciousness" (nineteenth century thinkers spoke about
>>> "slumber"). Animals are known for their alertness and do not slumber.
>>> Please address this issue before going on it seems to be much like
>>> Phaedrus' "hot stove" insight that obviously launched him om his
>>> Q-track, but no one seems to understand. I have tried the "sleep"
>>> question on a lot of people without receiving a single response.
>  
> Joe: 
>> A wonderful question.  Does a rock sleep? It is worn smooth by the
>> brook. It is melted by volcanic action. It flies into space from
>> volcanic explosions. A rock sleeps underground, and is awakened by the
>> erosion in the riverbed. Sunlight warms it and makes it grow beyond
>> its boundaries.  Freezing water is irresistible and it splits.
> 
> I  thought it was a straightforward question, but you either didn't
> understand it or evaded it. Sleep is a biological phenomenon and -
> again - animals that sleep must necessarily wake up to a state
> different from oblivion, yet animals aren't supposed to "have"
> consciousness so what is the state they wake up to? IMO this wrecks
> SOM's most pompous concept consciousness.
> 
>> Sleep is a state of being.  My bones are awake while my consciousness
>> sleeps! 
> 
> But what kind of consciousness is it that shuts down when a dog or a
> bird or a fish fall asleep? This is what it's about. Only humans are
> supposed to be (have) consciousness - at least the "hey, I am a
> human being" type -  but can there be an unconscious consciousness?
> It's here that the MOQ supplies an answer by introducing "value
> perception" instead of the consciousness hoax.
> 
>> Does a single cell have different functions?  Conscious cells sleep and
>> re-supply their energy base in order to operate at full capacity.  What
>> if they haven¹t been trained in how to operate?  Then, they know only
>> sleep or awake!  Nothing in between, like when to rest for a greater
>> challenge. 
> 
> Your deliberations may be valid, but a bit off regarding my question  so
> I leave it here in the hope that you will be a bit more to the point .... if
> you care to pursue the issue that is?.
> 
> 
> Bo