[MD] In and out of intellect.

[skutvik at online.no]

Hi Mel

11 Dec. you wrote:

> Bo / Joe, Sleep is not oblivion, but the things about which, there is
> consciousness are not the same as those in the 'wakeing' state. What
> is disengaged is most of the creating of memory, so most of what passes
> is not remembered. Consciousness is always consciousness of... and
> when the 'of' consists of difference too small to matter, then we
> blithely forget it and move on.   What we choose to not remember is as
> if it never existed.  It did, but not for the illusion of 'I'. Memory
> and the formation of memory give us the texture and character in our
> lives, our sense of 'who we are' and the knowledge we've processed, but
> memory is just another matter for consciousness to be conscious about.
> Before reacting to this, try it on for a while and see if it makes
> 'operational' sense. 

Thanks for your comment Mel, but  what about my point which is that 
SOM postulates a self-consciousness that shuts down when falling 
asleep and switches on when awakening (if it's just memory that 
switches off, the same applies to animals). Thus all creatures that 
sleep must have a similar shutting down/switching of  .... of what  .... 
because an animal isn't supposed to be self-conscious. A dog doesn't 
yawn and think "linguistically" "...another day in my doggy life". Yet it 
must wake up to some state different from sleep (that sleep feels like 
oblivion (except for the REM dream phase is plain). The nineteenth 
century thinkers invented the "slumber" term to circumvent the 
problem, but whatever animals do isn't walk around slumbering..   

Bo

PS. It's this self-consciousness issue that prevents Artificial 
Intelligence to make any breakthrough. It demands/fears an AI to 
"wake up to consciousness" and say (to itself) "I'm a computer, now I'll 
take control" This won't happen because SOM has no levels, they may 
replicate the biological neural network to the least "neuron" but the 
social level will not emerge and then clearly not the intellectual. NOT 
that the intellectual level ISs "self-consciousness" far from that, but it's 
intellect that has invented the subject that the is supposed to be self-
conscious.

    




















> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <skutvik at online.no>
> To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 12:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] In and out of intellect.
> 
> 
> Hi Plumber Joe
> 
> 5 Dec. you responded to my my question:
> 
> Bo before:
> > > Almost all creatures sleep, thus when an animal wakes up it must
> > > be to a state different from oblivion. Is this state a weaker
> > > version of the human "selfconsciousness" (nineteenth century
> > > thinkers spoke about "slumber"). Animals are known for their
> > > alertness and do not slumber. Please address this issue before
> > > going on it seems to be much like Phaedrus' "hot stove" insight
> > > that obviously launched him om his Q-track, but no one seems to
> > > understand. I have tried the "sleep" question on a lot of people
> > > without receiving a single response.
> 
> Joe:
> > A wonderful question.  Does a rock sleep? It is worn smooth by the
> > brook. It is melted by volcanic action. It flies into space from
> > volcanic explosions. A rock sleeps underground, and is awakened by
> > the erosion in the riverbed. Sunlight warms it and makes it grow
> > beyond its boundaries.  Freezing water is irresistible and it
> > splits.
> 
> I  thought it was a straightforward question, but you either didn't
> understand it or evaded it. Sleep is a biological phenomenon and -
> again - animals that sleep must necessarily wake up to a state
> different from oblivion, yet animals aren't supposed to "have"
> consciousness so what is the state they wake up to? IMO this wrecks
> SOM's most pompous concept consciousness.
> 
> > Sleep is a state of being.  My bones are awake while my
> > consciousness sleeps!
> 
> But what kind of consciousness is it that shuts down when a dog or a
> bird or a fish fall asleep? This is what it's about. Only humans are
> supposed to be (have) consciousness - at least the "hey, I am a human
> being" type -  but can there be an unconscious consciousness? It's
> here that the MOQ supplies an answer by introducing "value perception"
> instead of the consciousness hoax.
> 
> > Does a single cell have different functions?  Conscious cells sleep
> > and re-supply their energy base in order to operate at full
> > capacity.  What if they haven¹t been trained in how to operate? 
> > Then, they know only sleep or awake!  Nothing in between, like when
> > to rest for a greater challenge.
> 
> Your deliberations may be valid, but a bit off regarding my question 
> so I leave it here in the hope that you will be a bit more to the
> point .... if you care to pursue the issue that is?.
> 
> 
> Bo
> 
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> 
> 
> 
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