[MD] A Passionate Woman

[Margaret Warren]

Thanks SA for your observations -
Isabel Allende is truly amazing -
Thanks to whoever originally posted it. 
I wish you could see it. 

I do tend to get into a bind over these issues,
because I see many sides to the words:
feminism/feminist/the 'feminine energy'

 
they are, after all, just words - and we are all 
limited to our own experiences and our own 
perceptions. 

if you'd seen the video - Allende says that also: 
(about them being just words) - 
if you don't like the word feminism - 
call it whatever you like - we just have
to do something to empower the women 
who are in abusive situations in these
other countries - particularly africa and
the middle east. Places where women 
truly don't have any rights and in fact
are regularly raped, mutilated and killed
just because they are women. 

But here in my era, in this culture
the word just doesn't work for me -
I don't experience hostility because
I'm a woman on a daily basis.

I'm not at risk of being burned at the stake
because I'm a witch. And it's not that I don't 
believe in equal rights
- it's just that I believe in equal lefts as well. 

I earn more than many, many men I work with or 
around. Of course I believe in equal pay for
equal work - but I do know that once some women
get into a position of power in a company, they
too, will try to get employees for as cheap
as they can - it's the way capitalism works. 
If you are a boss (a woman) with hiring authority - and you
are hiring for a position in which the range for the 
position is $60,000 - $80,00 a year and you are
interviewing men and women and you have two people
come in - a man and a woman - both with degrees from 
the same school, both with the same level of experience -
the way the game works is that the boss describes what
the position pays, then asks what the employee is looking
for in the way of salary - to see if there is a good fit. 
Many, many times - the woman will ask for less. Do you
think the woman hiring person (who's job it is to keep
costs low) will tell her - 'awe, cmon honey, the man who
just interviewed before you asked for $15,000 more a year -
you need to ask for more money' - because she's interested
in empowering another woman and women have to bond with 
their 'feminine energy'? No, sorry. But, somewhere 
along way, women friends can try
to convince other women that they need to learn how to 
negotiate harder. 

You don't know how many female friends I've had who I've
tried to explain this to before. Do you think they 
listen? Sure they listen, but when it comes down to 
going into a job interview and having the (forgive, or
laugh at this expression: balls (or as I say - ovaries)
to demand more money for their labor - MOST of them 
fold. Is that a man's fault? I don't think so. But
eventually that kind of skill - which is a very high
level negotiating skill in a society - can be taught 
I think. 

It's very interesting that you do see young
juvenile delinquent women from a very different
point of view as well. I know that some of their behavior
is because these young women were sexually abused at very
young ages and they have a horribly low sense of self
esteem. I do think that men who do that
sort of thing to young women are horrible - 
but I don’t really think that the men's behavior
is 'caused' by the fact that we are living in 
a patriarchal system or because there isn't enough
feminism around. It's because they don't know
how to function socially. They are following their
biological motivations and they are sick -
they don't know that their behavior is not to be tolerated
in our society - look at all of the sickos that they catch
with the computer on the dateline show. one after another -
men trying to set up dates with young girls under the age
of 16. But it wasn't that long
ago that people got married at that age. At the turn of the
century - it was more uncommon that a woman was unmarried
by the age of 18 - was it more of a man's world then - yes
obviously - but all of it really has it's root in our 
biological initiative for survival and now there all kinds of men
out there who literally haven't evolved psychologially - 
where their brains/minds haven't embraced the 
knowledge that the behavior of seeking sex with young girls
under the age of 16 is not desirable and not functional
anymore in this society. So here's the question - do they still have
quality? 

I find these kind of men repugnant - yet are they just functioning
from their most base impulses - isn't this quality (at a very 
low level mind you)?. 

if I can look at anything from an moq perspective -
biological first and then social level - perhaps the gender issues are those
that are most easy to sort out. The biological is simply always
there. We function from our root wanting to mate. But our
social structure attempts to modify that and so on. 

In other cultures (such as the ones
in Africa - social behavior we find obscene is not only accepted, 
it's celebrated -
so yes, there is an imbalance there - yet - they are going through
the same transformations in evolving - and have got to see that
their social evolution cannot continue with the torture and abuse of
anyone within that system - or can it? 

I personally have never had a desire to travel to the middle east or have
a boyfriend from a muslim or islam culture. I have heard horror stories
about 
women who have boyfriends/marry here
who are then taken back to the husbands/boyfriends own countries and then
the rules
change. A man who may act very differently here may still be very
influenced by his own culture and on his own turf - he might be pressured
to or find it difficult to not act against his upbringing. 

I have also read and seen programs that show that some women in muslim 
or islam (and I'm afraid I'm very ignorant and I don't quite understand
or can't remember the difference between islam and muslim) are comfortable
with the system the way it is - I don't know if this is entirely true.
I'm sure that most of what I see is propaganda and has a particular
'spin' on it. 

anyway all of these are interesting topic to think about - sorry for the
rambling
monologue. I keep thinking I need to keep my comments short and sweet..but
I just can't seem to shut up sometimes. Just like a woman...



> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org 
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of 
> Heather Perella
> Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 5:15 PM
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] A Passionate Woman
> 
> 
> Margaret, 
> 
>      This was a wonderful post.  I'm wondering... 
> There seems to be at least two kinds of feminism that
> your speaking about.  The motherly, compassionate one,
> and the one that tries or does take advantage of men
> with sexual overtones, such as the 'batting with
> eye-lashes' to get attention for something
> manipulative.  I work with female teenagers, and I can
> tell when their trying to 'sooth the beast' so to
> speak, and since I'm a program manager that has this
> power to give or take away their home visits, they
> test me more often than just the day-to-day staff.  I
> was a day-to-day staff, and I definitely notice the
> difference in how the female residents approach me.  I
> do have to confess though, as much as these teenagers
> are in trouble and cause trouble, they can be more
> real at times with how they will act towards another. 
> They don't always try to throw their sexuality
> 'out-there', well, their probably more cautious about
> doing so since they've been in sexually abusive
> situations.
>     I didn't understand where Ron and you where coming
> from in the seemingly attack on Marsha's wanderance
> with feminism.  I took it as she was trying to talk
> about females and female actions.  As you point out
> below, yes, all females aren't the motherly type. 
> Some are manipulative, and very good at it.  Sometimes
> this manipulation isn't even leveraged by sexuality. 
> Any of these traits can be seen in males as well. 
> Females that steal for instance.  Females can look
> innocent.  They can quietly not show any aggression,
> and seem very good.  I'm thinking of one resident
> where I work in particular.  She behaves very well,
> and it makes you wonder why she's even there.  Yet,
> behind the scenes she's very manipulative.  She'll
> talk her grandmother and other people out of thinking
> she's doing anything bad, and will go out and slyly
> steal something.  Her leverage seems to be she is very
> good most of the time.  So, one looks at her, spends
> time with her, and thinks, oh she's a good person. 
> Yet, behind the scenes, she slyly steals, gets other
> residents to aggressively go after other residents,
> and she's a puppet master pulling strings.  She makes
> herself look very good, but she's actually the
> ring-leader.  Like a good, decent Italian mafia killer
> that spends time with his family and digs holes at
> night to put bodies in.
> 
> 
> Very good post Margaret.
> This was very insight, especially due to all these
> real examples that you know about via people that
> you've met and discussed first-hand with.
> 
> SA
> 
> P.S. I wan't able to get the video to come up on
> Isabel.  What you wrote here seems to show that
> feminism is more about cultivating a compassionate,
> loving woman and getting women out of abusive cycles
> and those in dire straits.  To strengthen the woman
> character in a positive way.  Thanks.   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Margaret] 
> > FINALLY - I got a chance to hear this - I've been
> > away on business
> > for the past week and a half.
> > 
> > What a fantastic speaker and a hot, hot, hot sexy
> > woman Isabel
> > Allende is!!! It makes me want to run out and get
> > some of
> > her writings - right away.
> > 
> > I am thrilled that you posted this as I am certainly
> > going
> > to post it around to some of my other circles of
> > friends.
> > 
> > I'm afraid I fall into the category of her daughter
> > as far as
> > the term 'feminism' goes in my world here in the US.
> > 
> > 
> > I think the term feminist has become horribly
> > contorted.
> > It's the opposite side of the pendelum. 
> > 
> > Often, I find absolutely no 'feminine' energy at all
> > inside of most
> > 'feminists' I meet - they have anything BUT
> > compassion and love
> > inside of them. They are often ugly (inside - and
> > sometimes outside too),
> > man-hating women who think that EVERYTHING wrong
> > with
> > the world was done by a man. 
> > 
> > Well let's don't forget something -
> > all men have had MOTHERS somewhere along the way -
> > and here in the land of plenty, I have
> > seen plenty of woman be equally if not more so,
> > abusive to their
> > husbands or men in domestic violence situations. 
> > 
> > Here is something curious to think about:
> > it is absolutely acceptable in common television
> > ads, sitcoms
> > and average tv here in the US for women to regularly
> > slap,
> > pinch, punch in the arm or otherwise 'put down' a
> > man verbally
> > because he's 'obviously stupid and inadequate' and
> > there will be an 
> > accompanying 'laugh track' to go with it. 
> > 
> > Try changing it around the other way and
> > see how many people would get seriously bent
> > out of shape about it. 
> > 
> > I don't watch them enough to know a lot of names of
> > programs -
> > but you can almost do it with the sound turned down
> > - it's alarming
> > how perfectly acceptable it is for women to be
> > physically violent
> > in common domestic situations (and I'm talking
> > mostly about sitcoms
> > on regular network television - not just dramatic
> > movies where the
> > main characters are 'supposed' to be like that) -
> > I'm talking about
> > 'Friends' or the comedies about 'raymond' or
> > whatever - I'm not
> > good with names.
> > 
> > But, as far as all of the things that Ms. Allende
> > was saying about
> > the need for feminine activism in a global sense, in
> > Third world
> > countries where women are so horribly abused as she
> > was describing -
> > yes the need for disassembling the social processes
> > that foster
> > those environments is obvious and absolutely
> > essential.
> > 
> > I have met women in this country in strip clubs -
> > within the past
> > several years who are from Eastern European
> > countries who were
> > brought here by 'pimps/"friends"' - men who have
> > paid their way out of 
> > worse conditions over there to bring them here to
> > work in strip 
> > clubs - then the girls presumably 'owe' the 'pimp'
> > so much money for 
> > bringing them here - that they are constantly paying
> > him back and 
> > can't get out of stripping - then they get into
> > drugs and 
> > basically are oppressed so much by their
> > situation...their 
> > self-esteem is already so low, they
> > can't figure out how to get out of this cycle of
> > abuse and
> > dependency. 
> > 
> > The problem is, I think these are social problems -
> > not a sign
> > of a lack of 'feminine energy'. There are other
> > women who
> > work in the strip clubs who are doing it so they can
> > pay for
> > their college education - but I don't see them
> > 'empowering' their
> > fellow 'sister' to get them out of the cycle of
> > abuse with their
> > pimps. 
> > 
> > Want to see/hear some interesting ideas about
> > women's situations -
> > watch  'Dancing at the Blue Iguana' or a short
> > performance art
> > clip by Laurie Anderson about picketing in front of
> > the 
> > Playboy Bunny club. 
> > 
> > Often times, women themselves continue to
> > choose situations where they whore their own selves
> > out -
> > for money, cocaine (I know young girls in their 20's
> > from
> > white, affluent, upper middle class neighborhoods
> > who will
> > do whatever the boys want just so they can get a
> > little attention
> > and some coke), for getting their plumbing fixed 
> > (I've got perfectly nice female friends who work in
> > good 9 - 5 
> > jobs who will sell out their sexual charms (or at
> > least the smile and the 'idea' of possible sex 
> > to get a man (who they aren't necessarily sexually
> > attracted
> > to) to fix their broken toilet - or porch - or car
> > or whatever
> > other service they'd rather bat their eyelashes
> > for), and then there
> > are those who just generally hold out for the
> > highest priced bidder 
> > who gets to walk down the aisle and buy the whole
> > pie
> > (as opposed to the slice). 
> > 
> > Do you think women behave like this because they
> > aren't 'empowered'
> > and this is their learned 'mechanism' for dealing
> > with a society run by
> > men? I don't necessarily think so. I know a lot of
> > young women who
> > have the wealth and education to behave differently
> > - but don't.
> > 
> > Women keep wanting the 'alpha male'. They want the
> > best provider
> > and protector (motivated by their biology) -
> > unfortunately, 
> > in our society today it is often the most insecure,
> > abusive men 
> > who masquerade the best as alpha males. These are
> > like social
> > problems to me - not necessarily
> > indicating that we are lacking in feminine energy.  
> > 
> > What exactly IS feminine energy and masculine energy
> > anyway?
> > I'm open for learning what it is that people really
> > mean
> > by these terms?
> > 
> > I get the feeling that some women (and men for that
> > matter)
> > equivocate the feminine/matriarchal with all things
> > that are good -
> > and the masculine/patriachal with all things that
> > are bad..
> > 
> > So I'm curious...what is meant by feminine
> > energy/male energy?
> > 
> > What do you all think?
> > 
> > Anyway, thanks for the forum for the rant - maybe SA
> > is right
> > about me being the one with some kind of issues
> > about this
> > since I react so 'passionately' about these
> > ideas...something
> > to think about.
> > 
> > But mostly - with posting this video, I'm very glad
> > for Marsha
> > that we now know that there are a few men out here
> > on this group 
> > who have indicated with a few posts about women and
> > feminism 
> === message truncated ===
> 
> 
>       
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