[MD] Levels?

[MarshaV]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Krimel" <Krimel at Krimel.com>
To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 2:07 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] Levels?



>
> [Krimel]
> I am arguing that chimps and ants and cavalry officers exhibit "social"
> behavior and that any understanding of the MoQ that limits the "social" to
> humans is flawed.
>
> I don't think one has to become a Zuni to gain an understanding of Zuni
> culture

anymore that a man can not understand pregnancy without becoming
> pregnant.



Krimel,

You don't think a man is unaware of any important aspect of pregnancy? 
Experience counts for nothing?  Or maybe you think that if a man (like you) 
isn't aware of something it doesn't count as experience.  Your statement 
seems to represent all the flaws in today's institutionalized medicine.   It 
is doubtful that a man you like you understands anything about women, 
especially when it comes to reproduction.

I am too angry to write another word.






After all, an anthro who joins the Zunis does not lose her former
> cultural perspective in the process. She would only understand what it is
> like to be a convert to Zuni culture not what it is like to be raised 
> within
> Zuni culture. See Nagel's paper "What It Is Like to Be a Bat".
>
> Krimmel (sic) said:
> Such commonalities must be part of the biological
> level. But if you remove the biologically based elements of human social
> behavior you really aren't left with much.
>
> Ron:
> you are making my point.
>
> [Krimel]
> If your point is that the "levels" are arbitrary and secondary then that 
> is
> good news.
>
> Ron:
> If, technologically advanced extra-terrestrials made contact with us.
> They would be confined to the biological level? I think MoQ leaves the
> door open for multiple definitions of patterns within a level.
> I think this is what Douglas Adams was doing by challenging our
> assumptions of intellectual beings.
> I think by virtue of Pirsigs immediate experience, we may only
> accurately define that which we experience. This is not to mean that
> other versions are not acceptable.
> If I was abducted by those hyper-intellectual mice and lived with
> them in their culture for a vast amount of time, I could give
> an accurate human appraisal of mouse society.
> I think Pirsig leaves the door open to Moq and does not
> limit it to a anthropocentric perspective. He does remind us
> that anthropomorphizim will exist and the only TRUE description
> could only come from a member, the only perspective we can ever
> get of another species society is a human interpretation.
> Likewise the only interpretation we can understand of Zuni
> society is through western social interpretation.
>
> Consequently, our interpretation of MoQ is a human western society
> interpretation of MoQ. It is a one size fits all intellectual method
> Man, Mouse, Eastern, Western ect.... that may only be accurately define
> by the culture that applies it.
>
> [Krimel]
> One of the things that sets humans apart from other species is our ability
> to take on other points of view. We intentionally alter our own illusions 
> if
> you will. This too is a developmental phenomenon. It begins at about nine
> months when infants begin to share attention with their caregivers. They
> look at what is being pointed at and they look at what another person 
> looks
> at. This ability matures as children grow in a regular pattern that 
> develops
> in similar fashion across dissimilar cultures. (Suggesting that it has a
> strong biological basis)
>
> It is this ability to see things from multiple points of view that makes 
> us
> human. Any understanding any of us has of anything will be in large 
> measure
> a personal, subjective understanding, unique to us. To the extent that our
> understanding corresponds to the "object" in question or coincides with 
> the
> understanding of others... Well that's gravy. That's what makes us "sane".
>
>
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