[MD] Emotions' place?

[Christoffer Ivarsson]

Come on Bodvar -

 No.

 It isn't SOM thinking, even though that would make it easy enough to 
dismiss it.  The fact of the matter remains: Democracy, which is a certain 
way of governing people, is NOT of the intellectual level as such, because 
it is a social pattern. It may be used to lift up intellectual values, 
intellectual values that has truth at it's core, but it can just as easily 
not be. This is not an issue about words, nor is it SOM thinking.

Look, I how it may sound for me to call all the good stuff - free speech, 
freedom of
religion, freedom of assembly, trial by jury, government by
consent, etc. - social level patterns. But the Truth of the matter is, that 
we can imagine a place, where all these things exist, and yet Truth is not 
valued. It's not all that hard really.

So while I say that all these things, these institutions,  may have come to 
be because of the influence of the intellectual level (and not all of them 
has come to be because of this I believe) they is now, and will remain, 
social level patterns, who would continue to work even when intellectual 
values slowly fade away.


>> >  Chris use of "reactionary" is way off, he ought to know the
>> > difference between the left/right spectrum within democratic/
>> > parliamentary rules and the real reactionary despotism/fascism.
>
>> Oh, and by the way Bo, I think you are wrong here. Because as I have
>> said before, democracy and all that good stuff doesn't really mean
>> anything. It's just words.
>
> What's not "just words" if you start on the language trail?
>
>> And unless people reflect upon these things with reason it is just
>> another social pattern.
>
> There is no "people" or "man" in the MOQ. Read LILA! It's quite
> hilarious how this point evades understanding and how easily one slips
> back into a somish view the MOQ where where words resides (in this
> case "democracy") at the intellectual level, while the patterns that the
> words refers to belongs at the social level (the first "matterish" level 
> in
> such a quasi MOQ).

Oh, by the Gods - no. It isn't SOM thinking, even thoug that would make it 
easy enoug to dissmiss it.

>> That's why democratic countries elect racist governments, and that's
>> why democracies go to war because of paranoia and greed and stuff like
>> that. The intellectual level - reason for the sake of this argument -
>> hasn't won. Sure institutions have been created that makes it easier
>> for the intellectual level to fight against the social one, but they
>> doesn't mean ANYTHING unless they really work to make people more ruled
>> by the intellectual level than the social one. The battle can only be
>> won in peoples minds. And that battle is far from won.
>
> If not the SOM-MOQ premise shift is understood from the outset, so
> many assertions can be made in the name of the MOQ, but really
> being SOM, and these we may discuss until blue in the face without
> any progress.
>
> Bodvar