[MD] The levels undressed

[Ian Glendinning]

Bo,

Not so quick with the "full stops".
Agree that MoQ (as reality) came before SOM, SOM being an intellectual
construct.
No argument therefore about the primary S/Q divide as I already said.

As usual the only point where we diverge is your sentence ...
"The SOM stripped of its metaphysical rank can remain MOQ's highest
static level without a
hitch ... MUST exist in that capacity to give it any explanatory or
liberating power."

No must or even need. SOM is a high (intellectual) static level, a
historicaly very significant one, but no reason to say it is the
highest for all time in MoQ terms; Unless you have an argument for
this point.

(The distinction between a metaphysics and the reality it represents
is a different matter, and issue for any metaphysics ... Paul Turner
also wrote on that.) I have no problem accepting MoQ as THE
metaphysical representation of reality.

Ian

On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 3:05 AM,  <skutvik at online.no> wrote:
> Hi Ian
>
> 31 Aug. you said:
>
>> No doubt S & D are the first split of Q.
>> Q is therefore the whole.
>
>> The key phrase Bo is "supposed to be".
>> How can a metaphysics and reality be one and the same thing.
>> One is "supposed to be" a representation of the other, and is a part
>> of that same reality.
>
> This sounds obvious dear Ian, but contains all that the SOM/ MOQ
> controversy is about. First of all: SOM is MOQ's creation, this we
> must understand, in SOM-land no one knows any SOM, they are
> in the same position as ancient mankind were regarding the planet
> earth; their earth went on downwards for ever while heaven
> continued unendingly upwards. To SOMists the universe is S/O-
> divided, the world is objective while what we think about it is
> subjective. Full stop!
>
> It's from the MOQ seen that there is something ahead of the S/O
> divide and when the MOQ postulates that this is Quality and is
> dynamic/static-divided it disappears from the MOQ. Our universe
> is DQ/SQ-divided, full stop!
>
> To claim that QUALITY is the main thing and the Dynamic/Static
> slash is secondary is futile. Pirsig tries it by saying that the SOM
> really is a "moq", but a S/O "moq" is no better than the traditional
> article. It's the "M" that counts. The SOM stripped of its
> metaphysical rank can remain MOQ's highest static level without a
> hitch ... MUST exist in that capacity to give it any explanatory or
> liberating power.
>
> Bo
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Looking forward to reading Magnus' latest piece.
>> Ian
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 2:24 AM,  <skutvik at online.no> wrote:
>> > Chris and Magnus
>> >
>> > 30 Aug. Christoffer Ivarsson wrote:
>> >
>> > Bo before:
>> >> >> BTW, what do you see as the first split? To some it seems to be
>> >> >> DQ/MOQ but is supposed to be DQ/SQ no?
>> >
>> > Then Magnus :
>> >> > DQ/MoQ? I don't follow, do you mean DQ/Reality? But no, of course
>> >> > the first split is DQ/SQ.
>> >
>> > Chris:
>> >> I think he means that people tend to view DQ as separate from the
>> >> MOQ, and - in essance - make it to zenish, Bodvar has pointed out
>> >> on many occations that DQ and SQ exists only when you look at the
>> >> world through MOQ glasses. But of course metaphysical glasses are
>> >> fundamental so..
>> >
>> > Yes, some seem to envisage an even greater "MOQ" that looks
>> > like this: Quality=Reality/MOQ, while I maintain that the rock
>> > bottom divide is DQ/SQ. As Chris points out a metaphysics is
>> > supposed to be reality. Only with Aristotles did we get SOM's
>> > "Reality/Metaphysics".
>> >
>> > Bo.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> > Archives:
>> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>> >
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> Archives:
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>>
>>
>
>
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>