[MD] The levels undressed

[skutvik at online.no]

Hi Ian

1 Sep. you wrote:
 
> Not so quick with the "full stops". Agree that MoQ (as reality) came
> before SOM, 

SOM came before the MOQ, but in light of the MOQ it was 
transformed to a Quality creation, it's the Newton argument over again. 
The first Greek physics had (to us) a strange explanation why things 
fell, but with Newton gravity entered and "crystallized" the present, past 
and future as to having existed always. With Pirsig Quality entered and 
for those who understand, it's no longer an explanation, it has existed 
always.

> SOM being an intellectual construct. No argument therefore about the
> primary S/Q divide as I already said. 

It can by no twist of logic be SOM after having become a 4th. level 
construct, within the MOQ the Quality Metaphysics rules. In LILA SOM 
is gone, Pirsig only speaks about science and knowledge as S/O 
patterns that has dominated intellect and made it forget its social roots 
(i.e. refuses to see the Q context)     

> As usual the only point where we diverge is your sentence ...
> "The SOM stripped of its metaphysical rank can remain MOQ's highest
> static level without a hitch ... MUST exist in that capacity to give
> it any explanatory or liberating power."
 
> No must or even need. SOM is a high (intellectual) static level, a
> historicaly very significant one, but no reason to say it is the
> highest for all time in MoQ terms; Unless you have an argument for
> this point.

Again, you don't find SOM in LILA (Pirsig saw the metaphysics within 
metaphysics flaw) only the villainous Science, but as said to Ron a 
monster can be seen as bad biology, but by no means can science be 
regarded as bad intellect it is intellect itself and a 4th. level rid of all 
S/O is non-existent, consequently it MUST be the intellectual level, 
every last bit of it.    

> (The distinction between a metaphysics and the reality it represents
> is a different matter, and issue for any metaphysics ... Paul Turner
> also wrote on that.) I have no problem accepting MoQ as THE
> metaphysical representation of reality.

I'm not sure what the THE indicates, at least a metaphysics IS reality. 
The "modern" notion of metaphysics as a theory about reality is SOM 
(Aristotles) You will not find a true social "levellist" (the metaphysics 
that was transformed by SOM from reality itself to different subjective 
faiths) who will admit that his holy scripture is a mere representation of 
God. Ref. the Koran for the Muslims

.Bo