[MD] Virtually meaningful?

[MarshaV]

Ian,

I imagine someone can equally be addicted to championing the excluded 
middle.

Marsha




At 03:58 PM 9/8/2008, you wrote:
>Dare I suggest something simpler here.
>
>Fantasy and role-playing - in mythology, drama, fiction, creative arts
>of many kinds, mind-games, thought-experiments, psychedelic
>experiences ... even playing aimless "easy rider" on you favourite
>cycle / horse / mountain / river ... even pure speculative imagination
>... are part of real life for millenia - nothing new there. Essential
>to human mental development social and intellectual.
>
>I for one, do avoid some of the more immersive role-play technologies
>(second-life is one .... though I have dabbled there too, and I did
>"play" civilization" quite a bit for a while). Not because they are
>bad (see above) but because some of them are too easy to participate
>for too many hours a day. ie they are "addictive" and addiction is
>bad, that's the psychological "problem", when people lose the balance
>between fantasy role-play as a learning experience and as a substitute
>for real life in general.
>
>Like so many people are addicted to logically objective positivism
>and/or SOMism. Same problem. Pure addiction.
>Ian
>
>On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 2:32 PM, ARLO J BENSINGER JR <ajb102 at psu.edu> wrote:
> > [DMB]
> > There is nothing wrong with having a little fun of course, but I 
> think its safe
> > to say that some things are better than others.
> >
> > [Arlo]
> > So are you going to define what's better "fun" for me? Are you 
> going to define
> > what's a better use of my time? Let reask, which is a "better" 
> use of 15 hours
> > a week, playing in a bluegrass band, brewing beer, riding solo on the hog,
> > playing warcraft, playing poker, playing poker online, making hot 
> sauces? And
> > WHY?
> >
> > If you're going to define "what's better", DMB, you better give 
> me the reasons
> > you make this claim. Is it the copresence of corporeal bodies? Is it in the
> > production of a material artifact? What exactly makes what you 
> claim "better"
> > to actually BE "better"?
> >
> > [DMB]
> > It's just that I don't understand how these virtual worlds can 
> mean anything at
> > all.
> >
> > [Arlo]
> > And my mom doesn't understand how riding a motorcycle alone for a 
> weekend in
> > the nether regions of Pennsylvania "can mean anything at all". 
> This is a fair
> > appraisal, but let's just say it lacks meaning FOR YOU, just as 
> disappearing
> > for a few days on the Harley lacks meaning for my mother.
> >
> > [DMB]
> > Pretending and role playing is necessary for children and can 
> help psychiatric
> > patients but I don't understand what meaning a normal adult finds in it.
> >
> > [Arlo]
> > Just as in reading a book is itself a "passive" foray into fantasy,
> > role-playing provides the gamer with the otherwise impossible "reality" of
> > living a life outside of the corporeal, socio-economic bounds of her/his
> > existence. When we play Monopoly, we "role-play" at being a 
> wealthy real-estate
> > tycoon. When we play Sid Meier's Civilization we "role-play" at being an
> > omnipresent (but not omnipotent) guider of world events. "Play" 
> is not simply a
> > frivolous activity for children, but I'd submit the most meaningful of
> > activities for adults.
> >
> > [DMB]
> > Can you say anything specific about what it means to you or your friends?
> >
> > [Arlo]
> > It provides a shared social space for geographical distributed 
> activity. Our
> > guild consists of friends spanning the globe. It is fun, 
> competitive without
> > being aggressive of violent. You know, any list I give really is 
> identical to
> > the list I'd give about why I find riding with the HOG club here 
> meaningful.
> > Social contact, enjoyable activity, "escape" from the demands of 
> work and the
> > drudgery of day-to-day grinding, the same sorts of things that 
> give meaning to
> > any "IRL" activity.
> >
> > [DMB]
> > But if guys like Pirsig and Heidegger are right about the pain and damage
> > caused by alienation and that psychic isolation then I can't help 
> but wonder if
> > virtual worlds aren't just a way to mask that.
> >
> > [Arlo]
> > I can't speak for others, but my experience in these virtual worlds is
> > intensely social. If anything, I can't help but wonder if these 
> worlds are a
> > response to the pain and damage caused by alienation and that 
> psychic isolation
> > of modern life.
> >
> > [DMB]
> > Or take porn, for example. This is an illusion of intimacy that, 
> in some cases,
> > does damage to real sex lives.
> >
> > [Arlo]
> > Any activity carried to extremes can bring about harmful 
> consequences. If I did
> > nothing but ride my Harley alone in every non-work, waking hour I had, I'd
> > likely been seen as anti-social, depressed, and dangerously 
> isolated. "Porn" is
> > out-of-balance sexuality, a confusion of the merging of physiological and
> > psychic union with the physiological act itself. But happy 
> couples have "porn"
> > sex, live vibrant, enjoyable, active sexual lives. The Kama Sutra 
> is a ongoing
> > best-seller for a reason.
> >
> > [DMB]
> > That's what I mean by meaningless diversions. I can't help but 
> wonder if people
> > are eating fruit-flavored candy instead of actual fruit, eating 
> starburst fruit
> > chews where a real cherry would be so much better for you.
> >
> > [Arlo]
> > Well, again, you're making a prejudiced assumption here without 
> backing it up.
> > Why is playing Warcraft like eating a starburst, but hanging out 
> with friends
> > in the local pub like eating real cherries? You seem to be really 
> hung-up on
> > physical copresence, or else I'm missing any other distinction you've made.
> >
> > The bottomline is that whether online, in a tavern, in a library, 
> on the road,
> > or in the kitchen, the Quality of the moment is defined by the value such
> > activity brings to those involved.
> >
> > [DMB]
> > I'd argue that this forum has real nutritional value. Hopefully, 
> we aren't just
> > pretending to discuss the MOQ here. That mere fact that it takes place in
> > cyberspace instead of a physical building and we type rather than 
> speak does
> > not divert anyone from a good philosophical conversation.
> >
> > [Arlo]
> > Is it that its about "philosophy" that gives this forum its 
> value? What if it
> > was a forum about cooking? Actually, I participated for a while 
> in an online
> > forum for hot pepper fanatics where we talked about hot sauces, peppers,
> > cooking, growing, etc. Was that "meaningful"? Would it have had 
> no meaning if I
> > only "pretended" I was a cook and gardener, but found value in talking to
> > others about such things?
> >
> > Take this, DMB, and lets say I spent 15 hours a week 
> participating in that hot
> > pepper forum. Would that be better, worse, same as if I spent 15 
> hours a week
> > playing Warcraft? Why?
> >
> > [DMB]
> > In fact, the medium works quite well for such a purpose. But virtual LIVES?
> >
> > [Arlo]
> > The "Arlo" you know here is a virtual "life". How is it not?
> >
> > [DMB]
> > Fantasy worlds where we become warriors that have magical powers?
> >
> > [Arlo]
> > If you spend no time fantasizing, DMB, I'd say that you are the 
> one with the
> > problem.
> >
> > [DMB]
> > Wouldn't a psychologist say that's kinda regressive or even infantile?
> >
> > [Arlo]
> > Actually we have a number of psychologists who we play with at times (in a
> > guild different than ours). Most consider it to be a healthy, 
> rich experience.
> > Of course, you can find psychologists who say that play is 
> infantile, the same
> > way you can find ones who blame sex on rock and roll, or violence on
> > videogames.
> >
> > [DMB]
> > I don't know, just don't get it. I'm skeptical, so I'm asking 
> you. It's easy to
> > see how that would be fun, but in what sense is it meaningful or 
> valuable or
> > anything like that?
> >
> > [Arlo]
> > It is no more, but also no less, meaningful that cooking, riding 
> a motorcycle
> > (solo or in a group), playing in a bluegrass band, or reading 
> history books.
> > The meaning is what it brings to those involved.  Or if you'd say 
> these other
> > things should be more meaningful or valuable, then tell me why?
> >
> >
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Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
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