[MD] Virtually meaningful?

[David M]

Hi Marsha

Good line, be careful you don't get hooked on Ian baiting though.
I must say, there is also something to be said for taking it to the
edge: but you pay a price for the treasures you
bring back, or worse you just go off the edge and don't come
back. But we do need our risk takers. I am sure Ian would agree.

DM

>
> Ian,
>
> I imagine someone can equally be addicted to championing the excluded 
> middle.
>
> Marsha
>
>
>
>
> At 03:58 PM 9/8/2008, you wrote:
>>Dare I suggest something simpler here.
>>
>>Fantasy and role-playing - in mythology, drama, fiction, creative arts
>>of many kinds, mind-games, thought-experiments, psychedelic
>>experiences ... even playing aimless "easy rider" on you favourite
>>cycle / horse / mountain / river ... even pure speculative imagination
>>... are part of real life for millenia - nothing new there. Essential
>>to human mental development social and intellectual.
>>
>>I for one, do avoid some of the more immersive role-play technologies
>>(second-life is one .... though I have dabbled there too, and I did
>>"play" civilization" quite a bit for a while). Not because they are
>>bad (see above) but because some of them are too easy to participate
>>for too many hours a day. ie they are "addictive" and addiction is
>>bad, that's the psychological "problem", when people lose the balance
>>between fantasy role-play as a learning experience and as a substitute
>>for real life in general.
>>
>>Like so many people are addicted to logically objective positivism
>>and/or SOMism. Same problem. Pure addiction.
>>Ian
>>
>>On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 2:32 PM, ARLO J BENSINGER JR <ajb102 at psu.edu> 
>>wrote:
>> > [DMB]
>> > There is nothing wrong with having a little fun of course, but I
>> think its safe
>> > to say that some things are better than others.
>> >
>> > [Arlo]
>> > So are you going to define what's better "fun" for me? Are you
>> going to define
>> > what's a better use of my time? Let reask, which is a "better"
>> use of 15 hours
>> > a week, playing in a bluegrass band, brewing beer, riding solo on the 
>> > hog,
>> > playing warcraft, playing poker, playing poker online, making hot
>> sauces? And
>> > WHY?
>> >
>> > If you're going to define "what's better", DMB, you better give
>> me the reasons
>> > you make this claim. Is it the copresence of corporeal bodies? Is it in 
>> > the
>> > production of a material artifact? What exactly makes what you
>> claim "better"
>> > to actually BE "better"?
>> >
>> > [DMB]
>> > It's just that I don't understand how these virtual worlds can
>> mean anything at
>> > all.
>> >
>> > [Arlo]
>> > And my mom doesn't understand how riding a motorcycle alone for a
>> weekend in
>> > the nether regions of Pennsylvania "can mean anything at all".
>> This is a fair
>> > appraisal, but let's just say it lacks meaning FOR YOU, just as
>> disappearing
>> > for a few days on the Harley lacks meaning for my mother.
>> >
>> > [DMB]
>> > Pretending and role playing is necessary for children and can
>> help psychiatric
>> > patients but I don't understand what meaning a normal adult finds in 
>> > it.
>> >
>> > [Arlo]
>> > Just as in reading a book is itself a "passive" foray into fantasy,
>> > role-playing provides the gamer with the otherwise impossible "reality" 
>> > of
>> > living a life outside of the corporeal, socio-economic bounds of 
>> > her/his
>> > existence. When we play Monopoly, we "role-play" at being a
>> wealthy real-estate
>> > tycoon. When we play Sid Meier's Civilization we "role-play" at being 
>> > an
>> > omnipresent (but not omnipotent) guider of world events. "Play"
>> is not simply a
>> > frivolous activity for children, but I'd submit the most meaningful of
>> > activities for adults.
>> >
>> > [DMB]
>> > Can you say anything specific about what it means to you or your 
>> > friends?
>> >
>> > [Arlo]
>> > It provides a shared social space for geographical distributed
>> activity. Our
>> > guild consists of friends spanning the globe. It is fun,
>> competitive without
>> > being aggressive of violent. You know, any list I give really is
>> identical to
>> > the list I'd give about why I find riding with the HOG club here
>> meaningful.
>> > Social contact, enjoyable activity, "escape" from the demands of
>> work and the
>> > drudgery of day-to-day grinding, the same sorts of things that
>> give meaning to
>> > any "IRL" activity.
>> >
>> > [DMB]
>> > But if guys like Pirsig and Heidegger are right about the pain and 
>> > damage
>> > caused by alienation and that psychic isolation then I can't help
>> but wonder if
>> > virtual worlds aren't just a way to mask that.
>> >
>> > [Arlo]
>> > I can't speak for others, but my experience in these virtual worlds is
>> > intensely social. If anything, I can't help but wonder if these
>> worlds are a
>> > response to the pain and damage caused by alienation and that
>> psychic isolation
>> > of modern life.
>> >
>> > [DMB]
>> > Or take porn, for example. This is an illusion of intimacy that,
>> in some cases,
>> > does damage to real sex lives.
>> >
>> > [Arlo]
>> > Any activity carried to extremes can bring about harmful
>> consequences. If I did
>> > nothing but ride my Harley alone in every non-work, waking hour I had, 
>> > I'd
>> > likely been seen as anti-social, depressed, and dangerously
>> isolated. "Porn" is
>> > out-of-balance sexuality, a confusion of the merging of physiological 
>> > and
>> > psychic union with the physiological act itself. But happy
>> couples have "porn"
>> > sex, live vibrant, enjoyable, active sexual lives. The Kama Sutra
>> is a ongoing
>> > best-seller for a reason.
>> >
>> > [DMB]
>> > That's what I mean by meaningless diversions. I can't help but
>> wonder if people
>> > are eating fruit-flavored candy instead of actual fruit, eating
>> starburst fruit
>> > chews where a real cherry would be so much better for you.
>> >
>> > [Arlo]
>> > Well, again, you're making a prejudiced assumption here without
>> backing it up.
>> > Why is playing Warcraft like eating a starburst, but hanging out
>> with friends
>> > in the local pub like eating real cherries? You seem to be really
>> hung-up on
>> > physical copresence, or else I'm missing any other distinction you've 
>> > made.
>> >
>> > The bottomline is that whether online, in a tavern, in a library,
>> on the road,
>> > or in the kitchen, the Quality of the moment is defined by the value 
>> > such
>> > activity brings to those involved.
>> >
>> > [DMB]
>> > I'd argue that this forum has real nutritional value. Hopefully,
>> we aren't just
>> > pretending to discuss the MOQ here. That mere fact that it takes place 
>> > in
>> > cyberspace instead of a physical building and we type rather than
>> speak does
>> > not divert anyone from a good philosophical conversation.
>> >
>> > [Arlo]
>> > Is it that its about "philosophy" that gives this forum its
>> value? What if it
>> > was a forum about cooking? Actually, I participated for a while
>> in an online
>> > forum for hot pepper fanatics where we talked about hot sauces, 
>> > peppers,
>> > cooking, growing, etc. Was that "meaningful"? Would it have had
>> no meaning if I
>> > only "pretended" I was a cook and gardener, but found value in talking 
>> > to
>> > others about such things?
>> >
>> > Take this, DMB, and lets say I spent 15 hours a week
>> participating in that hot
>> > pepper forum. Would that be better, worse, same as if I spent 15
>> hours a week
>> > playing Warcraft? Why?
>> >
>> > [DMB]
>> > In fact, the medium works quite well for such a purpose. But virtual 
>> > LIVES?
>> >
>> > [Arlo]
>> > The "Arlo" you know here is a virtual "life". How is it not?
>> >
>> > [DMB]
>> > Fantasy worlds where we become warriors that have magical powers?
>> >
>> > [Arlo]
>> > If you spend no time fantasizing, DMB, I'd say that you are the
>> one with the
>> > problem.
>> >
>> > [DMB]
>> > Wouldn't a psychologist say that's kinda regressive or even infantile?
>> >
>> > [Arlo]
>> > Actually we have a number of psychologists who we play with at times 
>> > (in a
>> > guild different than ours). Most consider it to be a healthy,
>> rich experience.
>> > Of course, you can find psychologists who say that play is
>> infantile, the same
>> > way you can find ones who blame sex on rock and roll, or violence on
>> > videogames.
>> >
>> > [DMB]
>> > I don't know, just don't get it. I'm skeptical, so I'm asking
>> you. It's easy to
>> > see how that would be fun, but in what sense is it meaningful or
>> valuable or
>> > anything like that?
>> >
>> > [Arlo]
>> > It is no more, but also no less, meaningful that cooking, riding
>> a motorcycle
>> > (solo or in a group), playing in a bluegrass band, or reading
>> history books.
>> > The meaning is what it brings to those involved.  Or if you'd say
>> these other
>> > things should be more meaningful or valuable, then tell me why?
>> >
>> >
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