[MD] Virtually meaningful?

[MarshaV]

Hi David,

Maybe a good line, but definitely a puzzlement.  Ian's comments often 
annoy me.  It has nothing to do with Ian.  I haven't given this 
puzzle much attention yet, but it's in my awareness.  It might be 
that his comments are too boring, neutral?  This might have ties with 
the 'Can DQ be Bad?' thread.  I sense there is a connection.

Risk taking?   I embarrass myself because I am such a coward.  Time 
seems short, and I cannot imagine what is more important.  I've 
finished with all the worldly matters.  I might be full of beans, but 
it feels greater than short-term thinking.

m



At 09:49 AM 9/13/2008, you wrote:
>Hi Marsha
>
>Good line, be careful you don't get hooked on Ian baiting though.
>I must say, there is also something to be said for taking it to the
>edge: but you pay a price for the treasures you
>bring back, or worse you just go off the edge and don't come
>back. But we do need our risk takers. I am sure Ian would agree.
>
>DM
>
>>
>>Ian,
>>
>>I imagine someone can equally be addicted to championing the excluded middle.
>>
>>Marsha
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>At 03:58 PM 9/8/2008, you wrote:
>>>Dare I suggest something simpler here.
>>>
>>>Fantasy and role-playing - in mythology, drama, fiction, creative arts
>>>of many kinds, mind-games, thought-experiments, psychedelic
>>>experiences ... even playing aimless "easy rider" on you favourite
>>>cycle / horse / mountain / river ... even pure speculative imagination
>>>... are part of real life for millenia - nothing new there. Essential
>>>to human mental development social and intellectual.
>>>
>>>I for one, do avoid some of the more immersive role-play technologies
>>>(second-life is one .... though I have dabbled there too, and I did
>>>"play" civilization" quite a bit for a while). Not because they are
>>>bad (see above) but because some of them are too easy to participate
>>>for too many hours a day. ie they are "addictive" and addiction is
>>>bad, that's the psychological "problem", when people lose the balance
>>>between fantasy role-play as a learning experience and as a substitute
>>>for real life in general.
>>>
>>>Like so many people are addicted to logically objective positivism
>>>and/or SOMism. Same problem. Pure addiction.
>>>Ian
>>>
>>>On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 2:32 PM, ARLO J BENSINGER JR <ajb102 at psu.edu> wrote:
>>> > [DMB]
>>> > There is nothing wrong with having a little fun of course, but I
>>>think its safe
>>> > to say that some things are better than others.
>>> >
>>> > [Arlo]
>>> > So are you going to define what's better "fun" for me? Are you
>>>going to define
>>> > what's a better use of my time? Let reask, which is a "better"
>>>use of 15 hours
>>> > a week, playing in a bluegrass band, brewing beer, riding solo 
>>> on the > hog,
>>> > playing warcraft, playing poker, playing poker online, making hot
>>>sauces? And
>>> > WHY?
>>> >
>>> > If you're going to define "what's better", DMB, you better give
>>>me the reasons
>>> > you make this claim. Is it the copresence of corporeal bodies? 
>>> Is it in > the
>>> > production of a material artifact? What exactly makes what you
>>>claim "better"
>>> > to actually BE "better"?
>>> >
>>> > [DMB]
>>> > It's just that I don't understand how these virtual worlds can
>>>mean anything at
>>> > all.
>>> >
>>> > [Arlo]
>>> > And my mom doesn't understand how riding a motorcycle alone for a
>>>weekend in
>>> > the nether regions of Pennsylvania "can mean anything at all".
>>>This is a fair
>>> > appraisal, but let's just say it lacks meaning FOR YOU, just as
>>>disappearing
>>> > for a few days on the Harley lacks meaning for my mother.
>>> >
>>> > [DMB]
>>> > Pretending and role playing is necessary for children and can
>>>help psychiatric
>>> > patients but I don't understand what meaning a normal adult 
>>> finds in > it.
>>> >
>>> > [Arlo]
>>> > Just as in reading a book is itself a "passive" foray into fantasy,
>>> > role-playing provides the gamer with the otherwise impossible 
>>> "reality" > of
>>> > living a life outside of the corporeal, socio-economic bounds 
>>> of > her/his
>>> > existence. When we play Monopoly, we "role-play" at being a
>>>wealthy real-estate
>>> > tycoon. When we play Sid Meier's Civilization we "role-play" at 
>>> being > an
>>> > omnipresent (but not omnipotent) guider of world events. "Play"
>>>is not simply a
>>> > frivolous activity for children, but I'd submit the most meaningful of
>>> > activities for adults.
>>> >
>>> > [DMB]
>>> > Can you say anything specific about what it means to you or 
>>> your > friends?
>>> >
>>> > [Arlo]
>>> > It provides a shared social space for geographical distributed
>>>activity. Our
>>> > guild consists of friends spanning the globe. It is fun,
>>>competitive without
>>> > being aggressive of violent. You know, any list I give really is
>>>identical to
>>> > the list I'd give about why I find riding with the HOG club here
>>>meaningful.
>>> > Social contact, enjoyable activity, "escape" from the demands of
>>>work and the
>>> > drudgery of day-to-day grinding, the same sorts of things that
>>>give meaning to
>>> > any "IRL" activity.
>>> >
>>> > [DMB]
>>> > But if guys like Pirsig and Heidegger are right about the pain 
>>> and > damage
>>> > caused by alienation and that psychic isolation then I can't help
>>>but wonder if
>>> > virtual worlds aren't just a way to mask that.
>>> >
>>> > [Arlo]
>>> > I can't speak for others, but my experience in these virtual worlds is
>>> > intensely social. If anything, I can't help but wonder if these
>>>worlds are a
>>> > response to the pain and damage caused by alienation and that
>>>psychic isolation
>>> > of modern life.
>>> >
>>> > [DMB]
>>> > Or take porn, for example. This is an illusion of intimacy that,
>>>in some cases,
>>> > does damage to real sex lives.
>>> >
>>> > [Arlo]
>>> > Any activity carried to extremes can bring about harmful
>>>consequences. If I did
>>> > nothing but ride my Harley alone in every non-work, waking hour 
>>> I had, > I'd
>>> > likely been seen as anti-social, depressed, and dangerously
>>>isolated. "Porn" is
>>> > out-of-balance sexuality, a confusion of the merging of 
>>> physiological > and
>>> > psychic union with the physiological act itself. But happy
>>>couples have "porn"
>>> > sex, live vibrant, enjoyable, active sexual lives. The Kama Sutra
>>>is a ongoing
>>> > best-seller for a reason.
>>> >
>>> > [DMB]
>>> > That's what I mean by meaningless diversions. I can't help but
>>>wonder if people
>>> > are eating fruit-flavored candy instead of actual fruit, eating
>>>starburst fruit
>>> > chews where a real cherry would be so much better for you.
>>> >
>>> > [Arlo]
>>> > Well, again, you're making a prejudiced assumption here without
>>>backing it up.
>>> > Why is playing Warcraft like eating a starburst, but hanging out
>>>with friends
>>> > in the local pub like eating real cherries? You seem to be really
>>>hung-up on
>>> > physical copresence, or else I'm missing any other distinction 
>>> you've > made.
>>> >
>>> > The bottomline is that whether online, in a tavern, in a library,
>>>on the road,
>>> > or in the kitchen, the Quality of the moment is defined by the 
>>> value > such
>>> > activity brings to those involved.
>>> >
>>> > [DMB]
>>> > I'd argue that this forum has real nutritional value. Hopefully,
>>>we aren't just
>>> > pretending to discuss the MOQ here. That mere fact that it 
>>> takes place > in
>>> > cyberspace instead of a physical building and we type rather than
>>>speak does
>>> > not divert anyone from a good philosophical conversation.
>>> >
>>> > [Arlo]
>>> > Is it that its about "philosophy" that gives this forum its
>>>value? What if it
>>> > was a forum about cooking? Actually, I participated for a while
>>>in an online
>>> > forum for hot pepper fanatics where we talked about hot 
>>> sauces, > peppers,
>>> > cooking, growing, etc. Was that "meaningful"? Would it have had
>>>no meaning if I
>>> > only "pretended" I was a cook and gardener, but found value in 
>>> talking > to
>>> > others about such things?
>>> >
>>> > Take this, DMB, and lets say I spent 15 hours a week
>>>participating in that hot
>>> > pepper forum. Would that be better, worse, same as if I spent 15
>>>hours a week
>>> > playing Warcraft? Why?
>>> >
>>> > [DMB]
>>> > In fact, the medium works quite well for such a purpose. But 
>>> virtual > LIVES?
>>> >
>>> > [Arlo]
>>> > The "Arlo" you know here is a virtual "life". How is it not?
>>> >
>>> > [DMB]
>>> > Fantasy worlds where we become warriors that have magical powers?
>>> >
>>> > [Arlo]
>>> > If you spend no time fantasizing, DMB, I'd say that you are the
>>>one with the
>>> > problem.
>>> >
>>> > [DMB]
>>> > Wouldn't a psychologist say that's kinda regressive or even infantile?
>>> >
>>> > [Arlo]
>>> > Actually we have a number of psychologists who we play with at 
>>> times > (in a
>>> > guild different than ours). Most consider it to be a healthy,
>>>rich experience.
>>> > Of course, you can find psychologists who say that play is
>>>infantile, the same
>>> > way you can find ones who blame sex on rock and roll, or violence on
>>> > videogames.
>>> >
>>> > [DMB]
>>> > I don't know, just don't get it. I'm skeptical, so I'm asking
>>>you. It's easy to
>>> > see how that would be fun, but in what sense is it meaningful or
>>>valuable or
>>> > anything like that?
>>> >
>>> > [Arlo]
>>> > It is no more, but also no less, meaningful that cooking, riding
>>>a motorcycle
>>> > (solo or in a group), playing in a bluegrass band, or reading
>>>history books.
>>> > The meaning is what it brings to those involved.  Or if you'd say
>>>these other
>>> > things should be more meaningful or valuable, then tell me why?
>>> >
>>> >
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>>
>>.
>>.
>>
>>Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
>>.
>>.
>>Moq_Discuss mailing list
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>
>
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Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
.
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