[MD] Virtually meaningful?

Thu Sep 18 11:53:47 PDT 2008

Hi Marsha

Odd, I'd assume Ian's comments have something to
do with him generally.

DM

>
> Hi David,
>
> Maybe a good line, but definitely a puzzlement.  Ian's comments often 
> annoy me.  It has nothing to do with Ian.  I haven't given this puzzle 
> much attention yet, but it's in my awareness.  It might be that his 
> comments are too boring, neutral?  This might have ties with the 'Can DQ 
> be Bad?' thread.  I sense there is a connection.
>
> Risk taking?   I embarrass myself because I am such a coward.  Time seems 
> short, and I cannot imagine what is more important.  I've finished with 
> all the worldly matters.  I might be full of beans, but it feels greater 
> than short-term thinking.
>
> m
>
>
>
> At 09:49 AM 9/13/2008, you wrote:
>>Hi Marsha
>>
>>Good line, be careful you don't get hooked on Ian baiting though.
>>I must say, there is also something to be said for taking it to the
>>edge: but you pay a price for the treasures you
>>bring back, or worse you just go off the edge and don't come
>>back. But we do need our risk takers. I am sure Ian would agree.
>>
>>DM
>>
>>>
>>>Ian,
>>>
>>>I imagine someone can equally be addicted to championing the excluded 
>>>middle.
>>>
>>>Marsha
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>At 03:58 PM 9/8/2008, you wrote:
>>>>Dare I suggest something simpler here.
>>>>
>>>>Fantasy and role-playing - in mythology, drama, fiction, creative arts
>>>>of many kinds, mind-games, thought-experiments, psychedelic
>>>>experiences ... even playing aimless "easy rider" on you favourite
>>>>cycle / horse / mountain / river ... even pure speculative imagination
>>>>... are part of real life for millenia - nothing new there. Essential
>>>>to human mental development social and intellectual.
>>>>
>>>>I for one, do avoid some of the more immersive role-play technologies
>>>>(second-life is one .... though I have dabbled there too, and I did
>>>>"play" civilization" quite a bit for a while). Not because they are
>>>>bad (see above) but because some of them are too easy to participate
>>>>for too many hours a day. ie they are "addictive" and addiction is
>>>>bad, that's the psychological "problem", when people lose the balance
>>>>between fantasy role-play as a learning experience and as a substitute
>>>>for real life in general.
>>>>
>>>>Like so many people are addicted to logically objective positivism
>>>>and/or SOMism. Same problem. Pure addiction.
>>>>Ian
>>>>
>>>>On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 2:32 PM, ARLO J BENSINGER JR <ajb102 at psu.edu> 
>>>>wrote:
>>>> > [DMB]
>>>> > There is nothing wrong with having a little fun of course, but I
>>>>think its safe
>>>> > to say that some things are better than others.
>>>> >
>>>> > [Arlo]
>>>> > So are you going to define what's better "fun" for me? Are you
>>>>going to define
>>>> > what's a better use of my time? Let reask, which is a "better"
>>>>use of 15 hours
>>>> > a week, playing in a bluegrass band, brewing beer, riding solo
>>>> on the > hog,
>>>> > playing warcraft, playing poker, playing poker online, making hot
>>>>sauces? And
>>>> > WHY?
>>>> >
>>>> > If you're going to define "what's better", DMB, you better give
>>>>me the reasons
>>>> > you make this claim. Is it the copresence of corporeal bodies?
>>>> Is it in > the
>>>> > production of a material artifact? What exactly makes what you
>>>>claim "better"
>>>> > to actually BE "better"?
>>>> >
>>>> > [DMB]
>>>> > It's just that I don't understand how these virtual worlds can
>>>>mean anything at
>>>> > all.
>>>> >
>>>> > [Arlo]
>>>> > And my mom doesn't understand how riding a motorcycle alone for a
>>>>weekend in
>>>> > the nether regions of Pennsylvania "can mean anything at all".
>>>>This is a fair
>>>> > appraisal, but let's just say it lacks meaning FOR YOU, just as
>>>>disappearing
>>>> > for a few days on the Harley lacks meaning for my mother.
>>>> >
>>>> > [DMB]
>>>> > Pretending and role playing is necessary for children and can
>>>>help psychiatric
>>>> > patients but I don't understand what meaning a normal adult
>>>> finds in > it.
>>>> >
>>>> > [Arlo]
>>>> > Just as in reading a book is itself a "passive" foray into fantasy,
>>>> > role-playing provides the gamer with the otherwise impossible
>>>> "reality" > of
>>>> > living a life outside of the corporeal, socio-economic bounds
>>>> of > her/his
>>>> > existence. When we play Monopoly, we "role-play" at being a
>>>>wealthy real-estate
>>>> > tycoon. When we play Sid Meier's Civilization we "role-play" at
>>>> being > an
>>>> > omnipresent (but not omnipotent) guider of world events. "Play"
>>>>is not simply a
>>>> > frivolous activity for children, but I'd submit the most meaningful 
>>>> > of
>>>> > activities for adults.
>>>> >
>>>> > [DMB]
>>>> > Can you say anything specific about what it means to you or
>>>> your > friends?
>>>> >
>>>> > [Arlo]
>>>> > It provides a shared social space for geographical distributed
>>>>activity. Our
>>>> > guild consists of friends spanning the globe. It is fun,
>>>>competitive without
>>>> > being aggressive of violent. You know, any list I give really is
>>>>identical to
>>>> > the list I'd give about why I find riding with the HOG club here
>>>>meaningful.
>>>> > Social contact, enjoyable activity, "escape" from the demands of
>>>>work and the
>>>> > drudgery of day-to-day grinding, the same sorts of things that
>>>>give meaning to
>>>> > any "IRL" activity.
>>>> >
>>>> > [DMB]
>>>> > But if guys like Pirsig and Heidegger are right about the pain
>>>> and > damage
>>>> > caused by alienation and that psychic isolation then I can't help
>>>>but wonder if
>>>> > virtual worlds aren't just a way to mask that.
>>>> >
>>>> > [Arlo]
>>>> > I can't speak for others, but my experience in these virtual worlds 
>>>> > is
>>>> > intensely social. If anything, I can't help but wonder if these
>>>>worlds are a
>>>> > response to the pain and damage caused by alienation and that
>>>>psychic isolation
>>>> > of modern life.
>>>> >
>>>> > [DMB]
>>>> > Or take porn, for example. This is an illusion of intimacy that,
>>>>in some cases,
>>>> > does damage to real sex lives.
>>>> >
>>>> > [Arlo]
>>>> > Any activity carried to extremes can bring about harmful
>>>>consequences. If I did
>>>> > nothing but ride my Harley alone in every non-work, waking hour
>>>> I had, > I'd
>>>> > likely been seen as anti-social, depressed, and dangerously
>>>>isolated. "Porn" is
>>>> > out-of-balance sexuality, a confusion of the merging of
>>>> physiological > and
>>>> > psychic union with the physiological act itself. But happy
>>>>couples have "porn"
>>>> > sex, live vibrant, enjoyable, active sexual lives. The Kama Sutra
>>>>is a ongoing
>>>> > best-seller for a reason.
>>>> >
>>>> > [DMB]
>>>> > That's what I mean by meaningless diversions. I can't help but
>>>>wonder if people
>>>> > are eating fruit-flavored candy instead of actual fruit, eating
>>>>starburst fruit
>>>> > chews where a real cherry would be so much better for you.
>>>> >
>>>> > [Arlo]
>>>> > Well, again, you're making a prejudiced assumption here without
>>>>backing it up.
>>>> > Why is playing Warcraft like eating a starburst, but hanging out
>>>>with friends
>>>> > in the local pub like eating real cherries? You seem to be really
>>>>hung-up on
>>>> > physical copresence, or else I'm missing any other distinction
>>>> you've > made.
>>>> >
>>>> > The bottomline is that whether online, in a tavern, in a library,
>>>>on the road,
>>>> > or in the kitchen, the Quality of the moment is defined by the
>>>> value > such
>>>> > activity brings to those involved.
>>>> >
>>>> > [DMB]
>>>> > I'd argue that this forum has real nutritional value. Hopefully,
>>>>we aren't just
>>>> > pretending to discuss the MOQ here. That mere fact that it
>>>> takes place > in
>>>> > cyberspace instead of a physical building and we type rather than
>>>>speak does
>>>> > not divert anyone from a good philosophical conversation.
>>>> >
>>>> > [Arlo]
>>>> > Is it that its about "philosophy" that gives this forum its
>>>>value? What if it
>>>> > was a forum about cooking? Actually, I participated for a while
>>>>in an online
>>>> > forum for hot pepper fanatics where we talked about hot
>>>> sauces, > peppers,
>>>> > cooking, growing, etc. Was that "meaningful"? Would it have had
>>>>no meaning if I
>>>> > only "pretended" I was a cook and gardener, but found value in
>>>> talking > to
>>>> > others about such things?
>>>> >
>>>> > Take this, DMB, and lets say I spent 15 hours a week
>>>>participating in that hot
>>>> > pepper forum. Would that be better, worse, same as if I spent 15
>>>>hours a week
>>>> > playing Warcraft? Why?
>>>> >
>>>> > [DMB]
>>>> > In fact, the medium works quite well for such a purpose. But
>>>> virtual > LIVES?
>>>> >
>>>> > [Arlo]
>>>> > The "Arlo" you know here is a virtual "life". How is it not?
>>>> >
>>>> > [DMB]
>>>> > Fantasy worlds where we become warriors that have magical powers?
>>>> >
>>>> > [Arlo]
>>>> > If you spend no time fantasizing, DMB, I'd say that you are the
>>>>one with the
>>>> > problem.
>>>> >
>>>> > [DMB]
>>>> > Wouldn't a psychologist say that's kinda regressive or even 
>>>> > infantile?
>>>> >
>>>> > [Arlo]
>>>> > Actually we have a number of psychologists who we play with at
>>>> times > (in a
>>>> > guild different than ours). Most consider it to be a healthy,
>>>>rich experience.
>>>> > Of course, you can find psychologists who say that play is
>>>>infantile, the same
>>>> > way you can find ones who blame sex on rock and roll, or violence on
>>>> > videogames.
>>>> >
>>>> > [DMB]
>>>> > I don't know, just don't get it. I'm skeptical, so I'm asking
>>>>you. It's easy to
>>>> > see how that would be fun, but in what sense is it meaningful or
>>>>valuable or
>>>> > anything like that?
>>>> >
>>>> > [Arlo]
>>>> > It is no more, but also no less, meaningful that cooking, riding
>>>>a motorcycle
>>>> > (solo or in a group), playing in a bluegrass band, or reading
>>>>history books.
>>>> > The meaning is what it brings to those involved.  Or if you'd say
>>>>these other
>>>> > things should be more meaningful or valuable, then tell me why?
>>>> >
>>>> >
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>>>
>>>.
>>>.
>>>
>>>Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the 
>>>stars.........
>>>.
>>>.
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>>
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>
> .
> .
>
> Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the 
> stars.........
> .
> .
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