[MD] Virtually meaningful?

[David M]

Hi DMB/Arlo

Interesting topic. As MOQers I'd like to think we see
that it's all real and it all  has a value and we are all
different and have different values and some overlapping
ones. If it is all real, so that what is virtual can be as real
as any other types of SQ then there is no reason why it
should not be as destructive or as valuable as anything else.
Sure the virtual is more optional than the lower level
reality, such are the levels, as you cannot disengage from
obtaining a living and money and food, etc. But that's
just something about how levels are built upon each other.
Surely MOQers do not value the more permanent over
the less so? We value DQ and change. The virtual reality
is DQ unfolding at its current edge of becoming. And in the
end everything, all SQ, becomes and departs. Do we value
SQ any less for being fleeting and creative and flowering for
only a short time? Is that not true of all levels of DQ? Is the
desire for permanence and the absence of change not the
error extracted from our old false friend called Plato?

That's what I think.
David M



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ARLO J BENSINGER JR" <ajb102 at psu.edu>
To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] Virtually meaningful?


> [DMB]
> There is nothing wrong with having a little fun of course, but I think its 
> safe
> to say that some things are better than others.
>
> [Arlo]
> So are you going to define what's better "fun" for me? Are you going to 
> define
> what's a better use of my time? Let reask, which is a "better" use of 15 
> hours
> a week, playing in a bluegrass band, brewing beer, riding solo on the hog,
> playing warcraft, playing poker, playing poker online, making hot sauces? 
> And
> WHY?
>
> If you're going to define "what's better", DMB, you better give me the 
> reasons
> you make this claim. Is it the copresence of corporeal bodies? Is it in 
> the
> production of a material artifact? What exactly makes what you claim 
> "better"
> to actually BE "better"?
>
> [DMB]
> It's just that I don't understand how these virtual worlds can mean 
> anything at
> all.
>
> [Arlo]
> And my mom doesn't understand how riding a motorcycle alone for a weekend 
> in
> the nether regions of Pennsylvania "can mean anything at all". This is a 
> fair
> appraisal, but let's just say it lacks meaning FOR YOU, just as 
> disappearing
> for a few days on the Harley lacks meaning for my mother.
>
> [DMB]
> Pretending and role playing is necessary for children and can help 
> psychiatric
> patients but I don't understand what meaning a normal adult finds in it.
>
> [Arlo]
> Just as in reading a book is itself a "passive" foray into fantasy,
> role-playing provides the gamer with the otherwise impossible "reality" of
> living a life outside of the corporeal, socio-economic bounds of her/his
> existence. When we play Monopoly, we "role-play" at being a wealthy 
> real-estate
> tycoon. When we play Sid Meier's Civilization we "role-play" at being an
> omnipresent (but not omnipotent) guider of world events. "Play" is not 
> simply a
> frivolous activity for children, but I'd submit the most meaningful of
> activities for adults.
>
> [DMB]
> Can you say anything specific about what it means to you or your friends?
>
> [Arlo]
> It provides a shared social space for geographical distributed activity. 
> Our
> guild consists of friends spanning the globe. It is fun, competitive 
> without
> being aggressive of violent. You know, any list I give really is identical 
> to
> the list I'd give about why I find riding with the HOG club here 
> meaningful.
> Social contact, enjoyable activity, "escape" from the demands of work and 
> the
> drudgery of day-to-day grinding, the same sorts of things that give 
> meaning to
> any "IRL" activity.
>
> [DMB]
> But if guys like Pirsig and Heidegger are right about the pain and damage
> caused by alienation and that psychic isolation then I can't help but 
> wonder if
> virtual worlds aren't just a way to mask that.
>
> [Arlo]
> I can't speak for others, but my experience in these virtual worlds is
> intensely social. If anything, I can't help but wonder if these worlds are 
> a
> response to the pain and damage caused by alienation and that psychic 
> isolation
> of modern life.
>
> [DMB]
> Or take porn, for example. This is an illusion of intimacy that, in some 
> cases,
> does damage to real sex lives.
>
> [Arlo]
> Any activity carried to extremes can bring about harmful consequences. If 
> I did
> nothing but ride my Harley alone in every non-work, waking hour I had, I'd
> likely been seen as anti-social, depressed, and dangerously isolated. 
> "Porn" is
> out-of-balance sexuality, a confusion of the merging of physiological and
> psychic union with the physiological act itself. But happy couples have 
> "porn"
> sex, live vibrant, enjoyable, active sexual lives. The Kama Sutra is a 
> ongoing
> best-seller for a reason.
>
> [DMB]
> That's what I mean by meaningless diversions. I can't help but wonder if 
> people
> are eating fruit-flavored candy instead of actual fruit, eating starburst 
> fruit
> chews where a real cherry would be so much better for you.
>
> [Arlo]
> Well, again, you're making a prejudiced assumption here without backing it 
> up.
> Why is playing Warcraft like eating a starburst, but hanging out with 
> friends
> in the local pub like eating real cherries? You seem to be really hung-up 
> on
> physical copresence, or else I'm missing any other distinction you've 
> made.
>
> The bottomline is that whether online, in a tavern, in a library, on the 
> road,
> or in the kitchen, the Quality of the moment is defined by the value such
> activity brings to those involved.
>
> [DMB]
> I'd argue that this forum has real nutritional value. Hopefully, we aren't 
> just
> pretending to discuss the MOQ here. That mere fact that it takes place in
> cyberspace instead of a physical building and we type rather than speak 
> does
> not divert anyone from a good philosophical conversation.
>
> [Arlo]
> Is it that its about "philosophy" that gives this forum its value? What if 
> it
> was a forum about cooking? Actually, I participated for a while in an 
> online
> forum for hot pepper fanatics where we talked about hot sauces, peppers,
> cooking, growing, etc. Was that "meaningful"? Would it have had no meaning 
> if I
> only "pretended" I was a cook and gardener, but found value in talking to
> others about such things?
>
> Take this, DMB, and lets say I spent 15 hours a week participating in that 
> hot
> pepper forum. Would that be better, worse, same as if I spent 15 hours a 
> week
> playing Warcraft? Why?
>
> [DMB]
> In fact, the medium works quite well for such a purpose. But virtual 
> LIVES?
>
> [Arlo]
> The "Arlo" you know here is a virtual "life". How is it not?
>
> [DMB]
> Fantasy worlds where we become warriors that have magical powers?
>
> [Arlo]
> If you spend no time fantasizing, DMB, I'd say that you are the one with 
> the
> problem.
>
> [DMB]
> Wouldn't a psychologist say that's kinda regressive or even infantile?
>
> [Arlo]
> Actually we have a number of psychologists who we play with at times (in a
> guild different than ours). Most consider it to be a healthy, rich 
> experience.
> Of course, you can find psychologists who say that play is infantile, the 
> same
> way you can find ones who blame sex on rock and roll, or violence on
> videogames.
>
> [DMB]
> I don't know, just don't get it. I'm skeptical, so I'm asking you. It's 
> easy to
> see how that would be fun, but in what sense is it meaningful or valuable 
> or
> anything like that?
>
> [Arlo]
> It is no more, but also no less, meaningful that cooking, riding a 
> motorcycle
> (solo or in a group), playing in a bluegrass band, or reading history 
> books.
> The meaning is what it brings to those involved.  Or if you'd say these 
> other
> things should be more meaningful or valuable, then tell me why?
>
>
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