[MD] Daffodils: a religion of experience.

MarshaV marshalz at charter.net
Mon Apr 13 01:13:48 PDT 2009 

Hello KO,


Well, wanting a cigarette is sometimes still an experience for 
me.  I've actually thought of getting a dozen cartons and seeing if I 
could smoke every cigarette within twenty-four hours.  But I I 
haven't yet.   I stopped smoking because I thought a full breath was 
more fun than a labored breath.  (I live in a stairmaster.)  That 
seemed true at the time, but...   Also, I live alone, so there was no 
one I would be in danger of killing.

All these static patterns of value are true.  Unless, of course, one 
has discovered they are all false.


Marsha



At 03:55 AM 4/13/2009, you wrote:
>Hi Marsha,
>
>what about someone who has the pattern of smoking; they enjoy the taste but
>know that it is bad for them.
>Can such addictive patterns be true too?
>
>-KO
>
>2009/4/11 MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
>
> >
> > Ron,
> >
> > Useful to?????????   Alpha dog?
> >
> > Does anybody understand that nobody holds a pattern they believe to be
> > untrue?   It is not possible.  Isn't that extraordinary?
> >
> > Do you disagree with this?
> >
> >
> > Marsha
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At 08:36 AM 4/11/2009, you wrote:
> >
> >> Marsha,
> >> some might say that truth is useful meaning.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
> >> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> >> Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 4:12:16 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [MD] Daffodils: a religion of experience.
> >>
> >>
> >> Will,
> >>
> >> Do you think there is a primary societal division between the
> >> intellectuals and the masses?
> >>
> >> By the way, what the heck is the 'truth'?  The way I interpret Lila
> >> in Chapter 14, individuals only hold patterns they consider truth, no
> >> one holds a pattern they consider false.  What then is truth?  If a
> >> pattern is repeated 10,000 times as opposed to 9 times is it more
> >> true?  Is truth relationship?  Does truth flash in and out of
> >> existence like some subatomic particle?  Do the intellectuals hold
> >> the truth?  Do the masses hold the truth?
> >>
> >> What was Huxley's mind like?
> >>
> >>
> >> Marsha
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> At 01:33 AM 4/11/2009, you wrote:
> >> >Hi KO,
> >> >
> >> >It's always easy to find controversy in the spiritual teachers.  They are
> >> >obviously fringe, and dealt with in that way.  However, the teachings
> >> >can always be separated from the person.  Perhaps they are able to
> >> >grasp concepts of group consciousness, and act just as a medium.  This
> >> >is not to say that deceit does not exist in this sector.  I have
> >> "Krishnamurti
> >> >to Himself - His last Journal", which he recorded at Pine
> >> >Cottage.  I sometimes  read
> >> >it randomly to give me something to think about as I fall asleep.
> >> >
> >> >The only book I don't like of Huxley's is the Doors of Perception.  I
> >> think he
> >> >made a little bit too much of his trips.  But with a mind like his,
> >> >I guess that is
> >> >what happens.
> >> >
> >> >Cheers,
> >> >Willblake2
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >On Apr 10, 2009, at 7:03:49 AM, "kieffer odigaunt"
> >> ><kieffer.odigaunt at googlemail.com> wrote:
> >> >Hi Marsha and Will,
> >> >
> >> >Krishnamurti's ideas have always appealed to me because of his lack of
> >> dogma
> >> >and totally pragmatic approach. As part of his call for the individual to
> >> >take responsibility ('You are the World') he many times talked about the
> >> >possibility that the very structure of the brain can change. I am reading
> >> a
> >> >book lately:- The Brain that Changes Itself - about recent advances in
> >> >Neuro-plasticity; it seems Krishnamurti was right and it adds gives more
> >> >credibility to the transformational 'Process' as he called it that he
> >> >underwent at Ojai. Perhaps he had found a way to apprehend dynamic
> >> quality
> >> >more clearly than the rest of us.
> >> >
> >> >His affair with the wife of his editorial manager 'Lives in the Shadow
> >> With
> >> >J Krishnamurti' written by her daughter, although very controversial in
> >> no
> >> >way detracts from the importance of what Krishnamurti advised.
> >> >
> >> >Aldous Huxley (along with John Dewey) was another famous pupil of
> >> >F.M.Alexander and even based one of the characters of his novel 'Eyeless
> >> in
> >> >Gaza' on Alexander. Huxley died from cancer of the tongue whilst under
> >> the
> >> >effects of LSD.
> >> >
> >> >-KO
> >> >
> >> >2009/4/10 MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > Greetings Will,
> >> > >
> >> > > I've been to Ojai many times, and can close my eyes and picture the
> >> ride
> >> > > there. Beautiful! You don't own the yard with the mower as lawn
> >> ornament,
> >> > > do you?
> >> > >
> >> > > The topic of Krishnamurit's life has come up before. I read a
> >> biography a
> >> > > very long time ago. Someone in this forum mentioned he was having an
> >> affair
> >> > > with his brother's wife. I do not care to make any judgements on his
> >> > > character. I saw him speak in an auditorium at Madison Square Garden.
> >> When
> >> > > he finished speaking he just got up and left the stage. It was very
> >> > > strange. I read 'Think On These Things' many, many years ago, It might
> >> have
> >> > > been my first reading of a metaphysical type, and have been curious to
> >> > > reread it. Also I want to read the dialogues between he and David Bohm
> >> as a
> >> > > way to acquaint myself with David Bohm.
> >> > >
> >> > > After listening to the In Our Times, 'Brave New World', and hearing
> >> the
> >> > > discussion concerning Aldus Huxley, I'd have to say he was just
> >> another
> >> > > brujo. It was a depressing IOT program.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Marsha
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > At 12:22 AM 4/10/2009, you wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >> Hi Marsha,
> >> > >>
> >> > >> If you want to get a historical perspective on Krishnamurti, and how
> >> he
> >> > >> was brought up through the religion of theosophy, read "Madam
> >> > >> Blavatsky's Baboon". It is an enjoyable read although somewhat
> >> > >> biased. Oh, and Aldus Huxley hung out a little with Krishnamurti,
> >> here in
> >> > >> Ojai, near where I live.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Willblake2
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> On Apr 8, 2009, at 3:34:46 AM, MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net> wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060916095
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Krishnamurti:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Would you like to discuss with you the problem of freedom. It
> >> > >> is a very complex problem, needing deep study and understanding. We
> >> > >> hear much talk about freedom, religious freedom, and the freedom to
> >> > >> do what one would like to do. Volumes have been written on all this
> >> > >> by scholars. But I think we can approach it very simply and directly,
> >> > >> and perhaps that will bring us to the real solution.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> I wonder if you have ever stopped to observe the marvellous
> >> > >> glow in the west as the sun sets, with the shy young moon just over
> >> > >> the trees? Often at that hour the river is very calm, and then
> >> > >> everything is reflected on its surface: the bridge, the train that
> >> > >> goes over it, the tender moon, and presently, as it grows dark, the
> >> > >> stars. It is all very beautiful. And to observe, to watch, to give
> >> > >> your whole attention to something beautiful, your mind must be free
> >> > >> of preoccupations, must it not? It must not be occupied with
> >> > >> problems, with worries, with speculations. It is only when the mind
> >> > >> is very quiet that you can really observe, for then the mind is
> >> > >> sensitive to extraordinary beauty; and perhaps here is a clue to our
> >> > >> problem of freedom.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Now, what does it mean to be free? Is freedom a matter of doing
> >> > >> what happens to suit you, going where you like, thinking what you
> >> > >> will? This you do anyhow. Merely to have independence, does that mean
> >> > >> freedom? Many people in the world are independent, but very few are
> >> > >> free. Freedom implies great intelligence, does it not? To be free is
> >> > >> to be intelligent, but intelligence does not come into being by just
> >> > >> wishing to be free; it comes into being only when you begin to
> >> > >> understand your whole environment, the social, religious, parental
> >> > >> and traditional influences that are continually closing in on you.
> >> > >> But to understand the various influences - the influence of your
> >> > >> parents, of your government, of society, of the culture to which you
> >> > >> belong, of your beliefs, your gods and superstitions, of the
> >> > >> tradition to which you conform unthinkingly - to understand all these
> >> > >> and become free from them requires deep insight; but you generally
> >> > >> give in to them because inwardly you are frightened. You are afraid
> >> > >> of not having a good position in life; you are afraid of what your
> >> > >> priest will say; you are afraid of not following tradition, of not
> >> > >> doing the right thing. But freedom is really a state of mind in which
> >> > >> there is no fear or compulsion, no urge to be secure.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Don't most of us want to be safe? Don't we want to be told what
> >> > >> marvellous people we are, how lovely we look, or what extraordinary
> >> > >> intelligence we have? Otherwise we would not put letters after our
> >> > >> names. All that kind of thing gives us self-assurance, a sense of
> >> > >> importance. We all want to be famous people - and the moment we want
> >> > >> to be something, we are no longer free.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Please see this, for it is the real clue to the understanding
> >> > >> of the problem of freedom. Whether in this world of politicians,
> >> > >> power, position and authority, or in the so-called spiritual world
> >> > >> where you aspire to be virtuous, noble, saintly, the moment you want
> >> > >> to be somebody you are no longer free. But the man or the woman who
> >> > >> sees the absurdity of all these things and whose heart is therefore
> >> > >> innocent, and therefore not moved by the desire to be somebody - such
> >> > >> a person is free. If you understand the simplicity of it you will
> >> > >> also see its extraordinary beauty and depth.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> After all, examinations are for that purpose: to give you a
> >> > >> position, to make you somebody. Titles, position and knowledge
> >> > >> encourage you to be something. Have you not noticed that your parents
> >> > >> and teachers tell you that you must amount to something in life, that
> >> > >> you must be successful like your uncle or your grandfather? Or you
> >> > >> try to imitate the example of some hero, to be like the Masters, the
> >> > >> saints; so you are never free. Whether you follow the example of a
> >> > >> Master, a saint, a teacher, a relative, or stick to a particular
> >> > >> tradition, it all implies a demand on your part to be something; and
> >> > >> it is only when you really understand this fact that there is
> >> freedom..
> >> > >>
> >> > >> The function of education, then, is to help you from childhood
> >> > >> not to imitate anybody, but to be yourself all the time. And this is
> >> > >> a most difficult thing to do: whether you are ugly or beautiful,
> >> > >> whether you are envious or jealous, always to be what you are, but
> >> > >> understand it. To be yourself is very difficult, because you think
> >> > >> that what you are is ignoble, and that if you could only change what
> >> > >> you are into something noble it would be marvellous; but that never
> >> > >> happens. Whereas, if you look at what you actually are and understand
> >> > >> it, then in that very understanding there is a transformation. So
> >> > >> freedom lies, not in trying to become something different, nor in
> >> > >> doing whatever you happen to feel like doing, nor in following the
> >> > >> authority of tradition, of your parents, of your guru, but in
> >> > >> understanding what you are from moment to moment.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> You see, you are not educated for this; your education
> >> > >> encourages you to become something or other - but that is not the
> >> > >> understanding of yourself. Your `self' is a very complex thing; it is
> >> > >> not merely the entity that goes to school, that quarrels, that plays
> >> > >> games, that is afraid, but it is also something hidden, not obvious.
> >> > >> It is made up, not only of all the thoughts that you think, but also
> >> > >> of all the things that have been put into your mind by other people,
> >> > >> by books, by the newspapers, by your leaders; and it is possible to
> >> > >> understand all that only when you don't want to be somebody, when you
> >> > >> don't imitate, when you don't follow - which means, really, when you
> >> > >> are in revolt against the whole tradition of trying to become
> >> > >> something. That is the only true revolution, leading to extraordinary
> >> > >> freedom. To cultivate this freedom is the real function of education.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Your parents, your teachers and your own desires want you to be
> >> > >> identified with something or other in order to be happy, secure. But
> >> > >> to be intelligent, must you not break through all the influences that
> >> > >> enslave and crush you?
> >> > >>
> >> > >> The hope of a new world is in those of you who begin to see
> >> > >> what is false and revolt against it, not just verbally but actually.
> >> > >> And that is why you should seek the right kind of education; for it
> >> > >> is only when you grow in freedom that you can create a new world not
> >> > >> based on tradition or shaped according to the idiosyncrasy of some
> >> > >> philosopher or idealist. But there can be no freedom as long as you
> >> > >> are merely trying to become somebody, or imitate a noble example.
> >> > >> (TOTT, pp.12-15)
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> ..
> >> > >> _____________
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the
> >> > >> stars...........
> >> > >> ..
> >> > >> ..
> >> > >>
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> >> > >>
> >> > >>
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> >> > >
> >> > > .
> >> > > _____________
> >> > >
> >> > > Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the
> >> stars..........
> >> > > .
> >> > > .
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> >> .
> >> _____________
> >>
> >> Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the
> >> stars.........
> >> .
> >> .
> >>
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> >
> > .
> > _____________
> >
> > Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
> > .
> > .
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.
_____________

Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
.
.

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