[MD] Evolution

Mon Aug 3 00:21:33 PDT 2009

It is conceptualized, constructed external objects perceived by an
conceptually constructed self.  

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of markhsmit
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 2:39 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Evolution

Oh, John, it's reality all right, but only a small part of it.  Sorry
to burst your bubble.

On Aug 2, 2009, at 11:14:10 PM, "John Carl" <ridgecoyote at gmail.com> wrote:
From:   "John Carl" <ridgecoyote at gmail.com>
Subject:    Re: [MD] Evolution
Date:   August 2, 2009 11:14:10 PM PDT
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Wait.... there's a difference? The reality I know isn't the real reality?
I've been hoodwinked!
Who did it to me?

Perhaps just a bit more purity in my experience and then I'll finally get
the real reality all lined up in my head. Yeah, that's the ticket.

2009/8/2 markhsmit <markhsmit at aol.com>

> Thanks John, I won't. I guess you are talking about personal reality.
>
> I thought we were talking about REALITY.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Willblake2
>
> On Aug 2, 2009, at 10:58:14 PM, "John Carl" <ridgecoyote at gmail.com> wrote:
> From: "John Carl" <ridgecoyote at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [MD] Evolution
> Date: August 2, 2009 10:58:14 PM PDT
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Well my reality is what I know, your reality is what you know, and when
our
> realities intersect we get a bigger knowing.
> But please don't take any of this too seriously. It's not meant to be
taken
> seriously. And don't ever ask anyone else for confirmation of your
reality.
>
>
> Seriously.
>
> john
>
> 2009/8/2 markhsmit <markhsmit at aol.com>
>
> > Hi John,
> >
> > I would say that reality goes way beyond what you know. I suppose that a
> > small subset of reality
> > is what you know. What about what I know, is that not real?
> >
> > Willblake2
> > On Aug 2, 2009, at 9:50:06 AM, "John Carl" <ridgecoyote at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > From: "John Carl" <ridgecoyote at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [MD] Evolution
> > Date: August 2, 2009 9:50:06 AM PDT
> > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > How about this then? Reality is what you KNOW it is.
> > John
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:08 PM, markhsmit <markhsmit at aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Reality is whatever you think it is? What utter nonsense! Sounds like
a
> > > definite dead end
> > > in the evolutionary tree of philosophy. If reality is whatever you
> think,
> > > then what is the you
> > > that is creating that reality? Isn't that "you" a little more real
than
> > > the reality it is creating?
> > > Or do you create you? It's like a snake eating it's own tail! Cyclical
> > > platitudes are so
> > > wonderfully useless. Reality is what you make it, ha!, indeed. That is
> > > really a useful
> > > statement, and where does that get you? Reality is what you feel? Then
> > > what is creating
> > > those feelings? This is truly a concept which is simply self serving,
> and
> > > if that is
> > > you enlightened whisper, good luck with that!
> > >
> > > No reality is outside what our feeble brains are trying to make of it.
> > Yet
> > > the brains are part
> > > of it, entirely. I would suggest a little more thought goes into
> getting
> > > out of these
> > > self-centered ideas. They will get you nowhere, completely useless.
> > >
> > > Just an opinion and suggestion.
> > >
> > > Willblake2
> > >
> > >
> > > On Jul 21, 2009, at 2:04:00 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> > > From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
> > > Subject: Re: [MD] Evolution
> > > Date: July 21, 2009 2:04:00 PM PDT
> > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > >
> > > Hi Joe,
> > >
> > > You seem to think evolution is important, I want to get at what is
> behind
> > > names, definitions and explanation.
> > >
> > >
> > > Marsha
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
> > > [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Joseph
> > Maurer
> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 4:38 PM
> > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > Subject: Re: [MD] Evolution
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 7/20/09 1:26 PM, "MarshaV" <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > [Marsha]
> > > Evolution is a high quality intellectual (scientific) static pattern
of
> > > value concerned with the order of existence.
> > >
> > > [Marsha]
> > > Holy Moly, I'm from Michigan too. Small world. My favorite place was
> > Irish
> > > Hills where my Oma lived on one of the Twin Lakes.
> > >
> > > [Marsha]
> > > Reality? I was in tears of joy with the best understanding of REALITY
I
> > > ever heard spoken by Lila: "...I'm whatever your questions turn me
> into.
> > > You
> > > don't see that. It's your questions that make me who I am. If you
think
> > I'm
> > > an angel then that's what I am. If you think I'm a whore then that's
> what
> > I
> > > am. I'm whatever you think. And if you change your mind about me then
I
> > > change too. So whatever Richard tells you, it's true. There's no way
he
> > can
> > > lie about me." - Reality is whatever you think it is, there's no way
> > > you can lie about it, and if you change your understanding of reality,
> > then
> > > reality changes too.
> > >
> > > Hi Marsha and all,
> > >
> > > [Joe]
> > > Reality/Evolution. Platt denies that intellect can determine value.
> “I?m
> > > whatever your questions turn me into.”
> > >
> > > [Joe]
> > > Imho I ordinarily do not think. In an analogy to a coin there are
three
> > > questions to ask about every manifestation. What it is, active? What
it
> > > is not, passive? At what level of evolution is it, neutral? Ordinarily
> > > “I?m whatever your questions turn me into” emphasizes the passive “I
am
> > > made
> > > into something!”
> > >
> > > [Joe]
> > > “Reality is whatever you think it is, there's no way
> > > you can lie about it, and if you change your understanding of reality,
> > then
> > > reality changes too.”
> > >
> > > [Joe]
> > > My impulse starts from an active “do something attitude” which is
quite
> > > insensitive. Imho the neutral “edge” of the coin, existence, remains
> > > unspoken but understood in most statements of experience in that it is
> > > undefined, not-conscious, evolution.
> > >
> > > Joe
> > >
> > > Marsha:
> > > Reality? I was
> > > > in tears of joy with the best understanding of REALITY I
> > > ever heard spoken by
> > > > Lila: "...I'm whatever your questions turn me into. You
> > > don't see that. It's
> > > > your questions that make me who I am. If you think I'm
> > > an angel then that's
> > > > what I am. If you think I'm a whore then that's what I
> > > am. I'm whatever you
> > > > think. And if you change your mind about me then I
> > > change too. So whatever
> > > > Richard tells you, it's true. There's no way he can
> > > lie about me." -
> > > > Reality is whatever you think it is, there's no way
> > > you can lie about it, and
> > > > if you change your understanding of reality, then
> > > reality changes too.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > Marsha
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Greetings Joe,
> > > >
> > > > What is not relative? I might wonder
> > > > what put you into a seminary for 12
> > > > years? I was very small when I sensed
> > > > there was something behind the
> > > words
> > > > and explanations: the moon, the
> > > > Absolute, Dynamic Quality. Not this, not
> > > > that, and certainly not a
> > > > metaphysics.
> > > >
> > > > And what is good, Phædrus,
> > > > And what is not good...
> > > >
> > > > Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?
> > > >
> > > > Did you find the explanations
> > > > for circling the moon satisfying? Creation?
> > > > Evolution? I'd say: not this,
> > > > not that.
> > > >
> > > > I love the Metaphysics of Quality, an inquiry into morals.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Marsha
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > >
> > > > From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
> > > >
> > > > [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Joseph
> > > Maurer>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 5:29 PM
> > > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > > Subject:
> > > > Re: [MD] Evolution
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 7/19/09 12:43 AM, "MarshaV"
> > > > <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Marsha and all,
> > > >
> > > > My thought as I typed
> > > > ³Absolute² was that Pirsig tied morals to evolution.
> > > > On my copy of Lila the
> > > > subtitle is AN INQUIRY INTO MORALS. My sense is
> > > that
> > > > for Pirsig evolution
> > > > is not speculation, but the metaphysical description
> > > > for levels of Quality.
> > > > These levels become the metaphysical basis for
> > > > morality. Is it that just
> > > > metaphysical descriptions are subject to
> > > > evolution, or are social laws? My
> > > > thought is that the members of society
> > > > are also evolving or have already
> > > > evolved to the intellectual level and
> > > > beyond (Bo¹s meta-level). IMO the
> > > > basis for morality transcends cultural
> > > > differences so I used the word
> > > > ³Absolute². I would not defend it other
> > > > than in an evolutionary scenario.
> > > > I sincerely hope that explanation helps
> > > > relieve the ³troubling².
> > > >
> > > > I
> > > > realize now that mathematics¹ has broader conceptualizations, the
> > > > universe.
> > > > Maybe evolution is specific to Earth¹s inhabitants. I do not
> > > > want to start
> > > > a creation-evolution debate, even though morality may not be
> > > > specific to
> > > > earth, when Worlds collide. IMO Pirsig avoided discussing any
> > > > origins for
> > > > the moon¹s orbit around the earth. But I have read some
> > > > explanations for
> > > > the moon¹s orbit around Earth.
> > > >
> > > > Joe
> > > >
> > > >> Greetings Joe,
> > > >>
> > > >> Isn't
> > > > evolution also related to human conceptualization? Where does the
> > > >> very
> > > > word and definition of 'evolution' come from? Isn't evolution
> > > merely
> > > >> the
> > > > best intellectual (scientific) static pattern of value explaining
the
> > > >>
> > > > origin of life on Earth? What about time? Does evolution assume a
> > > >>
> > > > relationship with time? Is time an Absolute? No, how can it be, is
it
> > > >>
> > > > related to change/motion? Your view of evolution as Absolute on
> planet
> > > >>
> > > > Earth is troubling.
> > > >>
> > > >> Marsha
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Hi Marsha and all.
> > > >>
> > > >> My
> > > > story is chance. I studied in a Catholic Seminary, College and
> > > >> Monastery
> > > > for 12 years. After 12 years of studying St Thomas Aquinas, I
> > > >> thought I
> > > > knew Philosophy. I was married to Louise after Anna was born.
> > > > We
> > > >> studied
> > > > esotericism for 4 years with a lady who had studied with John
> > > >> Bennett.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >> Louise decided to get a BA degree so she could get a better job,
and
> > in
> > > >
> > > > the
> > > >> course of her studies Zen and the Art was suggested reading. She
> told
> > > > me
> > > > I
> > > >> would like it. I did, and later I bought Lila in paperback. Then
> > > > by
> > > > chance
> > > >> I found the forum.
> > > >>
> > > >> I was skeptical, but something in me
> > > > resonates to Quality. I think
> > > > evolution
> > > >> is Absolute truth on planet
> > > > Earth.
> > > >>
> > > >> Joe
> > > >>
> > > >>> Hi Joe,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Nothing wrong with conventional
> > > > truth as long as I don't mistake it for
> > > >>> Absolute Truth. Evolution is a
> > > > great conventional truth. It has a
> > > >> history,
> > > >>> it has changed over time,
> > > > and will continue to change until it has too
> > > >> many
> > > >>> anomalies to survive.
> > > > I like to think of everyday experience and
> > > >>> conventional truth like a
> > > > kaleidoscope. Each shift exposes a different,
> > > >>> astounding view. But I
> > > > haven't always been so mellow.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> What's your story Joe? What moved you
> > > > to philosophy? What brought you
> > > > to
> > > >>> this forum?
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Marsha
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >>
> > >
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