[MD] Evolution

Joseph Maurer jhmau at sbcglobal.net
Mon Aug 3 13:50:45 PDT 2009 



On 8/2/09 11:08 PM, "markhsmit" <markhsmit at aol.com> wrote:
 
Hi Willblake2, John and all,

Are evolution and morality in a death spiral?

Joe
> Thanks John, I won't. ? I guess you are talking about personal reality.
> 
> I thought we were talking about REALITY.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Willblake2
> 
> On Aug 2, 2009, at 10:58:14 PM, "John Carl" <ridgecoyote at gmail.com> wrote:
> From:   "John Carl" <ridgecoyote at gmail.com>
> Subject:    Re: [MD] Evolution
> Date:   August 2, 2009 10:58:14 PM PDT
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Well my reality is what I know, your reality is what you know, and when our
> realities intersect we get a bigger knowing.
> But please don't take any of this too seriously. It's not meant to be taken
> seriously. And don't ever ask anyone else for confirmation of your reality.
> 
> 
> Seriously.
> 
> john
> 
> 2009/8/2 markhsmit <markhsmit at aol.com>
> 
>> Hi John,
>> 
>> I would say that reality goes way beyond what you know. I suppose that a
>> small subset of reality
>> is what you know. What about what I know, is that not real?
>> 
>> Willblake2
>> On Aug 2, 2009, at 9:50:06 AM, "John Carl" <ridgecoyote at gmail.com> wrote:
>> From: "John Carl" <ridgecoyote at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [MD] Evolution
>> Date: August 2, 2009 9:50:06 AM PDT
>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>> How about this then? Reality is what you KNOW it is.
>> John
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:08 PM, markhsmit <markhsmit at aol.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Reality is whatever you think it is? What utter nonsense! Sounds like a
>>> definite dead end
>>> in the evolutionary tree of philosophy. If reality is whatever you think,
>>> then what is the you
>>> that is creating that reality? Isn't that "you" a little more real than
>>> the reality it is creating?
>>> Or do you create you? It's like a snake eating it's own tail! Cyclical
>>> platitudes are so
>>> wonderfully useless. Reality is what you make it, ha!, indeed. That is
>>> really a useful
>>> statement, and where does that get you? Reality is what you feel? Then
>>> what is creating
>>> those feelings? This is truly a concept which is simply self serving, and
>>> if that is
>>> you enlightened whisper, good luck with that!
>>> 
>>> No reality is outside what our feeble brains are trying to make of it.
>> Yet
>>> the brains are part
>>> of it, entirely. I would suggest a little more thought goes into getting
>>> out of these
>>> self-centered ideas. They will get you nowhere, completely useless.
>>> 
>>> Just an opinion and suggestion.
>>> 
>>> Willblake2
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Jul 21, 2009, at 2:04:00 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>> From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Evolution
>>> Date: July 21, 2009 2:04:00 PM PDT
>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>> 
>>> Hi Joe,
>>> 
>>> You seem to think evolution is important, I want to get at what is behind
>>> names, definitions and explanation.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Marsha
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
>>> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Joseph
>> Maurer
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 4:38 PM
>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Evolution
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 7/20/09 1:26 PM, "MarshaV" <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> [Marsha]
>>> Evolution is a high quality intellectual (scientific) static pattern of
>>> value concerned with the order of existence.
>>> 
>>> [Marsha]
>>> Holy Moly, I'm from Michigan too. Small world. My favorite place was
>> Irish
>>> Hills where my Oma lived on one of the Twin Lakes.
>>> 
>>> [Marsha]
>>> Reality? I was in tears of joy with the best understanding of REALITY I
>>> ever heard spoken by Lila: "...I'm whatever your questions turn me into.
>>> You
>>> don't see that. It's your questions that make me who I am. If you think
>> I'm
>>> an angel then that's what I am. If you think I'm a whore then that's what
>> I
>>> am. I'm whatever you think. And if you change your mind about me then I
>>> change too. So whatever Richard tells you, it's true. There's no way he
>> can
>>> lie about me." - Reality is whatever you think it is, there's no way
>>> you can lie about it, and if you change your understanding of reality,
>> then
>>> reality changes too.
>>> 
>>> Hi Marsha and all,
>>> 
>>> [Joe]
>>> Reality/Evolution. Platt denies that intellect can determine value. “I?m
>>> whatever your questions turn me into.”
>>> 
>>> [Joe]
>>> Imho I ordinarily do not think. In an analogy to a coin there are three
>>> questions to ask about every manifestation. What it is, active? What it
>>> is not, passive? At what level of evolution is it, neutral? Ordinarily
>>> “I?m whatever your questions turn me into” emphasizes the passive “I am
>>> made
>>> into something!”
>>> 
>>> [Joe]
>>> “Reality is whatever you think it is, there's no way
>>> you can lie about it, and if you change your understanding of reality,
>> then
>>> reality changes too.”
>>> 
>>> [Joe]
>>> My impulse starts from an active “do something attitude” which is quite
>>> insensitive. Imho the neutral “edge” of the coin, existence, remains
>>> unspoken but understood in most statements of experience in that it is
>>> undefined, not-conscious, evolution.
>>> 
>>> Joe
>>> 
>>> Marsha:
>>> Reality? I was
>>>> in tears of joy with the best understanding of REALITY I
>>> ever heard spoken by
>>>> Lila: "...I'm whatever your questions turn me into. You
>>> don't see that. It's
>>>> your questions that make me who I am. If you think I'm
>>> an angel then that's
>>>> what I am. If you think I'm a whore then that's what I
>>> am. I'm whatever you
>>>> think. And if you change your mind about me then I
>>> change too. So whatever
>>>> Richard tells you, it's true. There's no way he can
>>> lie about me." -
>>>> Reality is whatever you think it is, there's no way
>>> you can lie about it, and
>>>> if you change your understanding of reality, then
>>> reality changes too.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> 
>>> Marsha
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Greetings Joe,
>>>> 
>>>> What is not relative? I might wonder
>>>> what put you into a seminary for 12
>>>> years? I was very small when I sensed
>>>> there was something behind the
>>> words
>>>> and explanations: the moon, the
>>>> Absolute, Dynamic Quality. Not this, not
>>>> that, and certainly not a
>>>> metaphysics.
>>>> 
>>>> And what is good, Phædrus,
>>>> And what is not good...
>>>> 
>>>> Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?
>>>> 
>>>> Did you find the explanations
>>>> for circling the moon satisfying? Creation?
>>>> Evolution? I'd say: not this,
>>>> not that.
>>>> 
>>>> I love the Metaphysics of Quality, an inquiry into morals.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Marsha
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> 
>>>> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
>>>> 
>>>> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Joseph
>>> Maurer>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 5:29 PM
>>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>>> Subject:
>>>> Re: [MD] Evolution
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 7/19/09 12:43 AM, "MarshaV"
>>>> <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Marsha and all,
>>>> 
>>>> My thought as I typed
>>>> ³Absolute² was that Pirsig tied morals to evolution.
>>>> On my copy of Lila the
>>>> subtitle is AN INQUIRY INTO MORALS. My sense is
>>> that
>>>> for Pirsig evolution
>>>> is not speculation, but the metaphysical description
>>>> for levels of Quality.
>>>> These levels become the metaphysical basis for
>>>> morality. Is it that just
>>>> metaphysical descriptions are subject to
>>>> evolution, or are social laws? My
>>>> thought is that the members of society
>>>> are also evolving or have already
>>>> evolved to the intellectual level and
>>>> beyond (Bo¹s meta-level). IMO the
>>>> basis for morality transcends cultural
>>>> differences so I used the word
>>>> ³Absolute². I would not defend it other
>>>> than in an evolutionary scenario.
>>>> I sincerely hope that explanation helps
>>>> relieve the ³troubling².
>>>> 
>>>> I
>>>> realize now that mathematics¹ has broader conceptualizations, the
>>>> universe.
>>>> Maybe evolution is specific to Earth¹s inhabitants. I do not
>>>> want to start
>>>> a creation-evolution debate, even though morality may not be
>>>> specific to
>>>> earth, when Worlds collide. IMO Pirsig avoided discussing any
>>>> origins for
>>>> the moon¹s orbit around the earth. But I have read some
>>>> explanations for
>>>> the moon¹s orbit around Earth.
>>>> 
>>>> Joe
>>>> 
>>>>> Greetings Joe,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Isn't
>>>> evolution also related to human conceptualization? Where does the
>>>>> very
>>>> word and definition of 'evolution' come from? Isn't evolution
>>> merely
>>>>> the
>>>> best intellectual (scientific) static pattern of value explaining the
>>>>> 
>>>> origin of life on Earth? What about time? Does evolution assume a
>>>>> 
>>>> relationship with time? Is time an Absolute? No, how can it be, is it
>>>>> 
>>>> related to change/motion? Your view of evolution as Absolute on planet
>>>>> 
>>>> Earth is troubling.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Marsha
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Marsha and all.
>>>>> 
>>>>> My
>>>> story is chance. I studied in a Catholic Seminary, College and
>>>>> Monastery
>>>> for 12 years. After 12 years of studying St Thomas Aquinas, I
>>>>> thought I
>>>> knew Philosophy. I was married to Louise after Anna was born.
>>>> We
>>>>> studied
>>>> esotericism for 4 years with a lady who had studied with John
>>>>> Bennett.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Louise decided to get a BA degree so she could get a better job, and
>> in
>>>> 
>>>> the
>>>>> course of her studies Zen and the Art was suggested reading. She told
>>>> me
>>>> I
>>>>> would like it. I did, and later I bought Lila in paperback. Then
>>>> by
>>>> chance
>>>>> I found the forum.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I was skeptical, but something in me
>>>> resonates to Quality. I think
>>>> evolution
>>>>> is Absolute truth on planet
>>>> Earth.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Joe
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Joe,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Nothing wrong with conventional
>>>> truth as long as I don't mistake it for
>>>>>> Absolute Truth. Evolution is a
>>>> great conventional truth. It has a
>>>>> history,
>>>>>> it has changed over time,
>>>> and will continue to change until it has too
>>>>> many
>>>>>> anomalies to survive.
>>>> I like to think of everyday experience and
>>>>>> conventional truth like a
>>>> kaleidoscope. Each shift exposes a different,
>>>>>> astounding view. But I
>>>> haven't always been so mellow.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> What's your story Joe? What moved you
>>>> to philosophy? What brought you
>>>> to
>>>>>> this forum?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>> 
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