[MD] Philosophy and Philosophology

[MarshaV]

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Ham Priday
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 3:01 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Philosophy and Philosophology


Dear Marsha --


> Marsha:
> I think static patterns of value are memory, a rerun, of past value
> events/processes brought into mind by the previous moment.
> The static patterns of value are the Universe (self and other) as
> constructed and known, and are mistaken for a separate physical universe.

Ham:
Value is neither "past" nor "present", although our finite experience of it 
is awareness in time.
Experiencing and learning is a process, and like all processes our existence

is dynamic.
(Sorry to have to disagree with RMP, but his "static pattern" concept 
doesn't support evolution or the experiential nature of existence.)

We live in a space/time world of appearances.  The phenomena we experience 
are all the result of change and difference which frames the universe.  The 
only truly "static" entity in reality is the uncreated source, and that we 
can only hypothesize about.


Marsha:
Space and time are conceptually constructed static patterns of value.  A
Value event/process would be equivalent to (Quality(Dynamic and static)).
Evolution is a highly valued intellectual static pattern.  Why do you think
the "static pattern" concept doesn't support evolution or experience?  

So your 'uncreated source' is knowable (you've defined it as static), how do
you know?  


Marsha 











> [Marsha adds]:
>> Maybe it would be better to say mind/consciousness, and that
>> sets up a nice relationship.  Mind/consciousness cannot exist
>> without patterns, and patterns cannot exist without mind/consciousness.
>
> Ham:
> No, Marsha.  "Mind/consciousness" is redundant.  The mind IS conscious
> awareness.  Let's not get confused about proprietary (subjective) 
> awareness.
>
> But let's not dismiss it, as Pirsig did..
>
> Marsha:
> Quality inspires conscious awareness.
>
>
> [Marsha adds something from Ant's PhD]:
>> As Pirsig rejects both mind-substance (i.e. the 'ghost') and
>> matter-substance (i.e. the 'machine') oriented ontologies of the world,
>> he employs one underpinned by value based events, Quality is
>> considered the source of subjects and objects and can be regarded
>> as a Dynamic event (1995a, p.12); an 'event at which the subject
>> becomes aware of the object.'  (ZMM, 1974a, p.239)
>> These Quality events (or processes), therefore, obtain the status as
>> the fundamental unit or 'primitives' of the universe and provide
>> a unity between the observer and the observed; knowing mind and
>> object.
> (A Critical Analysis of Robert Pirsig's Metaphysics of Quality,2005,Watts,
> p.133)
>
> Ham:
> If you can comprehend all that, you're a better philosophologist than I 
> am.
>
>
> Marsha:
> The above statement from Ant's PhD was a response to a Merleau-Ponty quote
> and it was probably unfair of me to isolate it from its context, but the
> important point is that RMP has designated "Quality events (or processes)"
> as the basis of the Universe (reality) which is then conceptually
> constructed (mistakenly) as independent self and objects.
>
>
> Marsha

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