[MD] the role of woman

[John Carl]

On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 11:29 AM, Charybdis <charybdisxv at gmail.com> wrote:

> Men in general believe that women prefer macho types (and so they aspire to
> be macho), but if you look at the men that women idolize or find beautiful,
> it is rarely the macho type.   Everyone prefers strength, but this strength
> is not always physical.



I agree.  High School years are the crucial years during which social/sexual
hierarchies are first established and then the later reflective years of the
20's modifies the earlier established categories.  Social dominance isn't
necessarily established by strength - the quarterback is not the strongest
member of the football team, but is usually "the leader" and thus the social
prize.

But my analysis from personal experience and what I've observed in the lives
of my kids (three teenagers at the moment) is that the quiet intellectual,
brainy types are almost always ignored.  That was one of the strong
impressions I got from Lila, that the author recounted a fascination with
this woman which reflected upon an earlier social rejection.

We all identify in our reading of the tale, with our own story and agenda.
 The nature of a great story, is that so many different people from such
different perspectives can identify with this one story.


> If you look at the younger generations, the thing that is far more
> disturbing than the idea of women going after macho men is the trend of
> women preferring emo types.


So a shift has occured.  A reaction against jockism, a reaction against the
revenge of the nerds, a biologically dynamic re-action of a social situation
that was itself, a reaction against the over reaction of it's social
problems in its day, ad infinitum.

I keep waiting for woodcutters to come back into style, but so far no luck.


Twilight, all these bland emo rock bands, etc.
>  I find this very disturbing, this fascination with men who are morbid and
> weak in every way, but that could just be my personal biases dominating my
> perception.


You are expressing something my teen daughters also express in their
experience with the boys.  my 2nd daughter's 1st boyfriend was a really nice
guy that I trusted completely who was thoughtful, sympathetic and caring.
 And simultaneously, too weak-egoed to be very confidence-inspiring.  It
seems to me that there will always be a biological basis of preference for
dominating males - it doesn't have to be domination based upon strength, but
some form of social hierarchy will create an upper echelon or the whole
sexual selection game loses it's flavor.  Anyway, all three of them express
some of the same frustration with the boys today that you mention.


> Personally, I've always known to look for the "socialized nerd" type, as
> these make the best partners.  Men who are caught up in trying to attain a
> macho ideal to attract women (or impress their male friends, more like) are
> a bit too self-interested to be a devoted mate.  I can't really speak for
> the preferences of other women of my generation, although I've known other
> women who seemed to realize the same thing that I did.
>

Ah, I take it you are a female then.  Didn't know the gender of the
Charybdis.   Scylla was a female, in an asian tale you'd have more of a
yin/yang balance to the story.  The greeks would posit the entire thing as a
wholly a feminine trap.  Sometime I really wonder about those guys.


Ultimately, and not to be missed in gav's original posting on this thread,
was the point that you can't lay any social faults or grievance at the doors
of either sex;  humanity is a whole.    Men run out the door to fight to
either protect their women, impress their women, or find some women to
protect and impress.  Every violent boy had a ma who could have taught him
better  and we are so bound up together in our complementary consciounessess
that pointing the finger of blame at either side from either side has to be
the most futile and time-wasting task avoidance technique since God asked
Adam, Whacha doin' munchin' on that fruit boy? and he replied, "well this
woman...."

John the Dad