[MD] Philosophy and Philosophology

[John Carl]

On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 1:46 PM, <plattholden at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey Bo, John, All
>
> If consciousness is self-explanatory, and self is an illusion (according to
> Pirsig and others), where does that leave us?


I don't believe self is an illusion.  I believe self is a choice.  Or let me
put it this way, the self as a static entity is illusory as an object, but
the *existence* of a self is the self-evident choice of consciousness.

Self as entity is real.

the contents of this entity are illusory as objects

At least, that's what I think.

If I am I.

And if I do think.

Which I think I do.

Which hopefully satisfies you cuz it sure satisfies me.


>
> Bo hints that the original MOQ as described in ZAMM dissolves the
> mind/matter enigma. But how? By making it a static level within the
> umbrella of the MOQ? OK. Does that make the DQ of the MOQ
> consciousness itself?


A form of meta-consciousness perhaps?



>
>
> In Lila Pirsig says Quality is experience and experience is value. Is
> consciousness the same as experience? Frankly, I don't see a
> difference. So that would make Quality=Consciousness


> Is this what you are saying, Bo? Is this where your train of thoughts is
> leading, John?
>

How can I know until I get there?  Right now  I'm still on the roller
coaster at the bottom of the hill and looking forward to where this
rollercoaster metaphysical train ends up.

I don't see anything wrong with Quality=Consciousness, at least on the
immediate surface appearance...

I've an ongoing issue with the ambiguity of the term "value" as used for
"differentiation" vs. "the good", which to me is practically a night and day
kind of opposition - the apprehension of an axis of travel vs an
apprehension of a direction to go.   So it would depend upon which kind of
Quality you mean.

But even equating (as you do, Platt) Quality with Good, there is a way of
posing this in a revealing manner: In what way is consciousness different
from "the Good".  And we haven't really gotten into much of a discussion of
evil, but if there is evil, then it seems the only place it arises is in
human consciousness.  Thus Quality is conscious, but not all consciousness
is Quality.

I'll be more sure after climbing out of my darkness, no doubt.



> Or is the problem of consciousness something we don't want to deal
> with? After all, nobody else has come up with a satisfactory explanation
> of consciousness. The idea that it somehow emerges from a lump of
> electric meat means it's a miracle. Shall we settle for that?
>

Relying on miracle as explanation is cheating in the metaphysic game.
 Naughty!  But I don't see a problem
in  explaining consciousness.   It's a good place to start when you're at
the bottom and in the dark.  We shall go there in more detail.  Promise.


Regards,

john