[MD] Villains

[OZ]

Thanks for the replies, Marsha & Platt.  Platt wrote: "I think Pirsig meant
the former were biological because they endorse
and act on the biological value of might-makes-right."

I wonder if there is a connection between the biological "might makes right"
and hedonism, including that in self-destructive drugs.  The thinking might
be, "I want to do this no matter what, and it will feel good too."  Perhaps
there is this level of consciousness in biological decisions, Marsha.

Platt also wrote:

"Pirsig supports individualism as did the nation's Founding Fathers. But,
the values of individual liberty and responsibility that made the U.S. the
the most dynamic and prosperous nation in the world are under assault.
Fortunately, citizens are fighting back in town halls all across the
country.
One should try to be a hero to preserve the highest value anyone has --
freedom from tyranny."

We are in agreement about these values, Platt.  I think what Pirsig was
arguing in ZAMM, however, is that one should not try too hard to be a hero.
One becomes a hero by living a good life first, and it flows out from
there.  It seems that Pirsig became a hero for his son at the end of ZAMM
because he became, through his efforts, a whole person again.  Perhaps the
Americans you refer to who have been defending themselves can do so because
they have been living good, personal lives.

A further thought about villains.  If villains do use SOM, it could be
argued that it is more likely in the long run that they will make poor
decisions because they are missing the big picture, while people more tuned
to dynamic, intellectual quality are more likely to make good decisions in
the long run.

Perhaps this is the source of the Buddhist idea that I read once in a book
by the Dalai Lama about good winning over lifetimes, multiple lifetimes in
the Buddhist perspective.  Gandhi said a similar thing about truth and truth
force (Satyagraha).

Otto


On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 8:02 PM, <plattholden at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 15 Aug 2009 at 20:47, OZ wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the replies, folks.  John, I hope that the roller coaster ride
> > you mentioned ends soon.
> >
> > I seem to remember Pirsig discussing an example of right and wrong in
> "Lila"
> > regarding an inner city neighborhood where biological African-Americans
> > squared off against social ones.  I think he meant that the former were
> > biological because their actions were intended to benefit themselves
> > individually and biologically, perhaps for illicit drugs, etc.  This is
> > similar to John's idea that villains strive to benefit a subjective self.
>
> I think Pirsig meant the former were biological because they endorse
> and act on the biological value of might-makes-right.
>
> > Further, Marsha, I agree with Pirsig that our intellect and logic has
> made
> > humans powerful but dangerous.
> >
> > As far as who wins or who loses against villains, I came across an
> > interesting section about that in ZAMM:
> >
> > "I think that if we are going to reform the world, and make it a better
> > place to live in, the way to do it is not with the talk about
> relationships
> > of a political nature, which are inevitably dualistic...The place to
> improve
> > the world is first in one's own hear and head and hands, and then work
> > outward from there (267)."
>
> Pirsig supports individualism as did the nation's Founding Fathers. But,
> the values of individual liberty and responsibility that made the U.S. the
> the most dynamic and prosperous nation in the world are under assault.
> Fortunately, citizens are fighting back in town halls all across the
> country.
>
> > I guess one shouldn't try to be a hero; one should try to *not* to try
> too
> > much so that it is easier to sense Quality.
>
> One should try to be a hero to preserve the highest value anyone has --
> freedom from tyranny.
>
> Regards,
> Platt
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>