[MD] Salami & Wisdom ?

Sun Aug 23 07:51:55 PDT 2009

Ron,

I don't doubt that your path of learning is extremely interesting, and  
has provided you with wisdom and a particular point-of-view.  My  
journey has me connecting the dots differently.
I'll keep in mind what you've suggested.

Marsha

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 23, 2009, at 10:26 AM, X Acto <xacto at rocketmail.com> wrote:

> Well,
>
> I looked up what exactly a koan was and how it related
> to Japanese culture and it filled the same purposes as
> socratic method in our own, taught in law schools
> used as case studies with no one answer.
>
> I read Phaedrus and in Phaedrus, Socrates explains
>
> eleaic method and it corresponds to how the Japanese
> used the Koan. as a case study. used to induce confusion
> and a new understanding.
>
> It's explained in the Sophist as well
>
> Plato wrote in the style of the oral
> the idea being that written words corrupted ideas.
> that truth is contextual and not absolute
>
>
> he used socratic method when he wrote
>
> much as Pirsig did
>
> to question our own beliefs and truths
>
> Plato was a sophist
>
> there was no new wisdom or ultimate truth to his works
>
> he invites us to inquirey about what we think we know
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Marsha <valkyr at att.net>
> To: "moq_discuss at moqtalk.org" <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2009 9:56:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] Salami & Wisdom ?
>
> Ron,
>
> Where did you learn that Plato wrote in koans?
>
> Marsha
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 23, 2009, at 9:42 AM, X Acto <xacto at rocketmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I had felt that way too
>> but
>> I had a need to revisit it given I have learned that he
>> wote in the same style as Pirsig as a narrative.
>> a Koan
>>
>> in Dwai's words:
>> This I believe was Nagarjuna's use of prasanga (or Dialectics) to  
>> show that any position in a debate can be reduced to absurdity and  
>> contradiction.
>>
>> This is meant to show that no categorical framework in itself is  
>> absolute...neither the "truth claims" that they make. The "Truth"/ 
>> Reality that people see/adhere to is simply a result of the  
>> categorical framework they use."
>>
>> Understanding it in this way and not in the way he has been  
>> interpreted as other philosophic writing of the time
>>
>> of an exponding of an absollute philosphical system to be  
>> dogmatically followed as Aristotle or protagoras.
>> try reading Sophist, just this once with this sort of eye and, in  
>> relation to the conversations that have been
>> engaged recently.
>>
>> You may be pleasently suprised
>>
>> I was
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>> Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2009 3:05:59 AM
>> Subject: Re: [MD] Salami & Wisdom ?
>>
>> Ron,
>>
>> I do not want to necessarily cause controversy, but I do not  
>> necessarily
>> want to avoid challenging what is politically correct, even  
>> philosophically,
>> either.  I'm not intelligent enough or philosophically  
>> knowledgeable enough
>> to be one much a challenge. -  I have the complete works of Plato,  
>> and have
>> read some of it.  I am tired of Plato, though, and would like to  
>> read and
>> consider seriously those writers who were/are thinking around,  
>> beyond,
>> beneath Plato for a different perspective, a better perspective.
>>
>> Marsha
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
>> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of X Acto
>> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2009 5:25 PM
>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>> Subject: Re: [MD] Salami & Wisdom ?
>>
>> I think a better term
>>
>> one that would draw less
>>
>> controversy is Pragmatism
>>
>> which holds many truths
>>
>> and which are contextual
>> to experience
>>
>> I just read
>>
>> Sophist
>>
>> by Plato and it is a wonderful dialog of the sort
>>
>> you are pursuing
>>
>> http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/sophist.html
>>
>>
>> and an excellent piece to discuss which concerns the issue without  
>> getting
>>
>> personal in way of beliefs and accusitory of attacks
>>
>> -Ron
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2009 2:14:29 PM
>> Subject: Re: [MD] Salami & Wisdom ?
>>
>>> From Wiki:
>>
>> "The term (Relativism) often refers to truth relativism, which is the
>> doctrine that there are no absolute truths, i.e., that truth is  
>> always
>> relative to some particular frame of reference, such as a language  
>> or a
>> culture."
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativism
>>
>>
>> The MoQ support multiple truths.  Seems to me the frame of  
>> reference within
>> the MoQ would be the value.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
>> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of david  
>> buchanan
>> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2009 1:01 PM
>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>> Subject: Re: [MD] Salami & Wisdom ?
>>
>>
>> Marsha said:
>> Just for the record, I still say the truth of knowledge, which is  
>> static
>> patterns of value, is still relative to immediate experience.
>>
>>
>> dmb says:
>>
>> According to my computer's dictionary, the term "relative" has seven
>> different definitions. Four of them are adjectives. Three of them  
>> are nouns.
>> None of them refers to "relativism". In your sentence above, the term
>> "relative" is used to mean that static patterns are "related" to  
>> immediate
>> experience or that concepts exist in "relation" to immediate  
>> experience. If
>> you mean to say that concepts are derived from experience, I'd agree.
>> Unfortunately, that has nothing to do with relativism. As the  
>> little joke
>> about me and my cousin being related to each other was meant to  
>> indicate, as
>> the explanation about panrelationalism was meant to indicate,  
>> relativism is
>> NOT merely a claim that one thing is related to another - whether  
>> than
>> relation is genetic or conceptual or anything else. That's just not  
>> what
>> relativism means. That's just not how people use the term. Well, not
>> informed people anyway.
>> It's hard to me to believe that you are really THAT confused about  
>> what the
>> word means. Don't take my word for it. Look it up.
>>
>>
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